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DomesticWildcat.com Lineage Help! Am I really a Savannah?

#1
I did some research on the lineage of my kitten that was purchased as a gift for my 30th birthday from Taran and Jimmy Nolan at DomesticWildcat.com. I was told by Jimmy that she was an F3, but they liked to call them F2.5 since they are "closer" to an F2 Savannah. I made a "family tree" from what I was able to find out. I would greatly appreciate any opinions and/or insight as to what my kitten might actually be. After reading another thread on here it started to make me wonder if we were duped into thinking she was something other than she is. I will post pictures of the registration papers I was able to obtain from Jimmy (I have to post those from my phone since they are not saved on my computer). I can not figure out, based on who I was told the parents were, where she got the polydactyl feet trait from! Again, thanks for any help!
 

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#2
I did some research on the lineage of my kitten that was purchased as a gift for my 30th birthday from Taran and Jimmy Nolan at DomesticWildcat.com. I was told by Jimmy that she was an F3, but they liked to call them F2.5 since they are "closer" to an F2 Savannah. I made a "family tree" from what I was able to find out. I would greatly appreciate any opinions and/or insight as to what my kitten might actually be. After reading another thread on here it started to make me wonder if we were duped into thinking she was something other than she is. I will post pictures of the registration papers I was able to obtain from Jimmy (I have to post those from my phone since they are not saved on my computer). I can not figure out, based on who I was told the parents were, where she got the polydactyl feet trait from! Again, thanks for any help!
Here is the registration paper Jimmy sent me for Big Foot's dad, Don Juan Demarco (registered as Kimbo, Grandfather to my kitten). He did not paper Big Foot, really don't understand why if both his parents were papered. He claims to own Zuni now, Big Foot's mother, but since she was sold from Bion to a lady, who could no longer own her so she was given back to Bion and then Jimmy, the papers were never transferred to him?!?! So he claims. As for my kitten's mom, Bellissima, who Jimmy also owns...he said she is papered, but was unable to locate her papers at the moment so he sent me her sisters papers instead, Stella, who he owns as well. Assuming that is correct, I used her papers to trace the "family tree". All seems a little strange to me, guess that's why I never fully explained any of this to me till after he was paid right before he shipped the kitten. My fault, I know. First time experience. Live and learn I guess!
 

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Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#3
IF those are actually the cats behind your kitten, then it is an F3 Savannah. The problem is that without them registering cats there is no actual proof that these are cats in your kitten's lineage. It's called a "paper trail" for a reason. If he owns the mom, he could register BigFoot even if the mom was called an "experimental shorthair for use in a SV program"... it's what we did in the early days of the breed when using domestic shorthairs as outcrosses.

Given that he has unpapered cats, this raises the possibility that he purchased cats as pets not breeders. Cats purchased as breeders should come with their papers. Good breeders would not continue to breed unregistered cats.

Definitely the time to check out a kitten's pedigree is before you've signed a contract and definitely before paying any money. And it is reasonable to expect the contract to mention the parents' registration numbers and the commitment to supplying you with papers too.
 
#4
IF those are actually the cats behind your kitten, then it is an F3 Savannah. The problem is that without them registering cats there is no actual proof that these are cats in your kitten's lineage. It's called a "paper trail" for a reason. If he owns the mom, he could register BigFoot even if the mom was called an "experimental shorthair for use in a SV program"... it's what we did in the early days of the breed when using domestic shorthairs as outcrosses.

Given that he has unpapered cats, this raises the possibility that he purchased cats as pets not breeders. Cats purchased as breeders should come with their papers. Good breeders would not continue to breed unregistered cats.

Definitely the time to check out a kitten's pedigree is before you've signed a contract and definitely before paying any money. And it is reasonable to expect the contract to mention the parents' registration numbers and the commitment to supplying you with papers too.
As I'm sure you guessed, I am new to all of this. Can you explain to me how an F6 Savannah and an F2 Jungle Cat/Chausie hybrid make an F3 Savannah/Jungle Cat hybrid? I thought the further away from the serval you go the higher the generation is?
 

SavannahLuv

Site Supporter
#5
As I'm sure you guessed, I am new to all of this. Can you explain to me how an F6 Savannah and an F2 Jungle Cat/Chausie hybrid make an F3 Savannah/Jungle Cat hybrid? I thought the further away from the serval you go the higher the generation is?
You've got it backwards. The closer to the serval, the higher the generation. F1 = serval parent, F2 = serval grandparent, etc.

The generation of each Savannah kitten is determined by the highest generation of either parent; if a mother is an F1, her babies will be F2's, no matter the generation of the Savannah father. The generation goes one step below the highest generation of any parent (posted by Pam in another forum, Generation Question).

Perhaps this can also help you better understand: http://www.savannahcatchat.com/threads/what-does-the-f-and-other-letters-mean.16/
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#6
As I'm sure you guessed, I am new to all of this. Can you explain to me how an F6 Savannah and an F2 Jungle Cat/Chausie hybrid make an F3 Savannah/Jungle Cat hybrid? I thought the further away from the serval you go the higher the generation is?
Because for Domestic Wildcats, there is no distinction between breeds. Another reason why they do not register with TICA. Because it would NOT be a F3 "Savannah/Chausie hybrid" but either an F3A Chausie or an F7A Savannah. In their eyes if they meld the two things it can be an F3 plus still use the Savannah label...which in the end is what attracts the buyers.

Simply put, there is not as much of a market for Chausie kittens as Savannah kittens. I do NOT say that as my personal opinion as I think the Chausie breed amazing and some of the Chausies I have seen in the show hall recently are fabulous cats, but in terms of the pet market, the Savannah garners a higher price tag. Especially at the "F2/F3" level. When you searched for your kitten likely you looked for a Savannah kitten not a Chausie. And this has been something I find very misleading about this cattery, they make sales based on a breed name yet they are not actually breeding that breed. They are breeding mixed breed kittens with poly paws, bobbed tails, curled ears and still calling them Savannahs. They market a "wild" look but the Serval is a specific wild appearance.

Now I don't know what your kitten's actual lineage is. One of the Domestic Wildcats we had in Savannah Rescue this year was transferred to Chausie Rescue as we (collectively) decided that it was more a Chausie than a Savannah. If the lineage you were given by Jimmy is correct, then your kitten is more Savannah, but given the drama of this year when many of us called into question that Savannah label, I don't know that I could believe their word on this anymore.
 

Patti

Admin
Staff member
#9
Because for Domestic Wildcats, there is no distinction between breeds.
Yes they have pretty much made up their own registry, and make up their own registration terms. It's all a marketing ploy, and it becomes obvious that it is all smoke and mirrors once you take the time to drill down to the truth.
 
#10
You've got it backwards. The closer to the serval, the higher the generation. F1 = serval parent, F2 = serval grandparent, etc.

The generation of each Savannah kitten is determined by the highest generation of either parent; if a mother is an F1, her babies will be F2's, no matter the generation of the Savannah father. The generation goes one step below the highest generation of any parent (posted by Pam in another forum, Generation Question).

Perhaps this can also help you better understand: http://www.savannahcatchat.com/threads/what-does-the-f-and-other-letters-mean.16/
I'm sorry, I think we are saying the same thing...let me rephrase, or clarify. By higher generation I mean 10 is higher than 1, hence an F6 would be a higher generation than an F1, however if your referring to higher quality (hate to put it that way, had a better word for it, but it has escaped my mind now) than I would say F2 over F9 (in my mind anyway...but that may be just mathematical thinking?!?!) so I think we're thinking the same way, just being understood the oposite! Lol! I guess I just didn't realize that it's solely based off the parent with the lowest (or highest...in my mind) generation. Thank you for clarifying. I think what is also confusing me is reading all the posts from the "domestic wildcat sells sick kittens" thread where there have been many different insights into what generation/breed their kittens would be considered...at best. I will read back through my emails with Jimmy (so I'm correct in stating) what percentage wild blood and generation (omitting their F2.5 claim) my kitten supposedly is so maybe you can help determine if their claims are close to truthful!