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siamese_ choco or seal ?


Savannah Super Cat
hi color experts :)
I need your help !!
I have a nice litter of orientals & siamese kittens, and I am used to lynx point. This time a pretty girl is coloring, and I am not used with the solid color pointed kittens.
She is 2 weeks old on the pictures.
Chocolate or seal point ? what do you think ? Mommy is black torty point and daddy is chocolate spotted tabby.
choco1.jpg choco2.jpg choco3.jpg
and just for bonus: almost naked spotted boy, he was 11 days old on the picture.
and daddy, Slim
slim window.jpg slim closeup lr.jpg


Staff member
If the tail tip and paw pads aren't black then I would guess it's a chocolate point.


Savannah Super Cat
Thank You, I don't want to tell the wrong color to a future adopter ;)

I checked her paw pads.... really pink with a bit of shading, very light and the furr on the toes are still white/cream.
Choco :)

Dr. Cris Bird

Savannah Super Cat
Have been a Siamese/Thai breeder for nearly 20 years. When kittens are super young, you can't tell much from point color or paw pad color. Even on seal points, the paw pad color can be surprisingly pinkish at age 2 weeks just because there hasn't been time for full pigmentation to develop.

The most reliable indicator in solid pointed kittens of the "Sacred Four" colors is *timing* of the color development. If the nose leather and ear rims begin to darken at only 2 to 3 days old, you know the kittens are either seal point or blue point. Then you just wait 2 or more weeks to be sure which of the two.

If the nose leather and ears rims remain quite pink for about the first 2 weeks of life, the color is either chocolate point or lilac point. And again you may have to wait several weeks to be sure which of those two colors you have.

Body color can also help. Chocolates and lilacs tend to have body color so creamy white that it sort of GLOWS when they are next to seals or blues, even at a very young age. However, that's not totally dependable. For example, I once bred a blue point kitten who absolutely glowed on the body for the first year of his life -- the entire first year. I really was not sure what his color was until I gave in and had him tested by the VGL. It is through testing that I've learned that the timing of color development is a much more reliable indicator than the body color. This blue point boy of mine got his nose and ear rim color at about 3 days old -- and it turned out that he was indeed a blue point. He carried chcolate, however, and that may have been one of the reasons his body tended to be much lighter than that of most blues.

It helps of course to know what the parents carry, so you know what colors are possible in the offspring. You can have them color tested at the VGL. That's the surest way. The old way is to look at the pedigrees. If the grandparents are lilac, for example, you know the parents *must* carry dilute and chocolate, whether or not they are themselves those colors. There's a lot pedigrees can't tell us, unfortunately.

I can't tell anything from the photo. Colors in photos are unreliable to begin with. When you then add in the variation in how colors appear from one browser to the next -- well, I have no way of knowing what your kitten actually looks like in the flesh. On my browser, she looks more like a blue, but that isn't worth much. LOL.



Savannah Super Cat
I am learning, usually I have lynx point kittens. This one is solid and her body is more cream than her red lynx point brothers (almost pure white/pink).
I had a solid brown kitten last litter (a surprise to me). I had a lilac lynx point and choco lynx point (with brown marking instead of black as daddy).

She is getting very dark, even some shading on the body at 4 weeks. She is so much short hair (and so silky soft), her paws and nose bridge where nude for a while, coloring a bit late. I think choco, but keep an open mind while she develops.

Daddy is spotted choco (black) tabby. His sisters where seal point (or really super dark choco). I want to make him recognized for the breed by TICA this fall if they pass the test. I don't have the pedegree, couldn't track back the original breeder. I didn't know about orientals before meeting him ;)

slim_lr.jpg slim en boule.jpg slim claws.jpg

Mommy is torty point, black with very light cream. Her parents are both orientals, red spotted tabby and torty. She is probably the one carrying for dilution or i actually diluted.

guimauve.jpg Guimauve2.jpg

One of the previous kitten is the torby girl in my avatar, she looks diluted, but the tip of the tail is black. but I want to study more about genetics, bought /reserved a book, they didn't received it yet. It is so interesting, it's like a big puzzle to me.

Dr. Cris Bird

Savannah Super Cat
The color genes can be a lot of fun to work out -- as you say, like a logic puzzle. Orientals are one of the more complicated breeds in terms of color genes. ;-)

Your Oriental stud looks like a black spotted tabby. The background color doesn't matter usually. It's the color of the spots and stripes that matters. If he's black spotted, then basically he's a black cat with agouti (turns on tabby expression), and the tabby pattern turned on by the agouti in this case is the spotted tabby pattern. Genetics people are still working on figuring spotting genes out, but we can express the genes as
A/-, B/-, D/-, C/cs, TS/-, O/y as a working system. A is agouti. B is black. D is non-dilute. C is full color, carrying a recessive colorpoint allele. TS is the spotted tabby pattern. The "O" is for orange color (aka red). He has the non-red gene, which is what is expressed because it's an X-linked gene. His other "gene" is nonexistent because he only has one X chromosome.

Your queen is a seal tortie point. That makes her: a/a, B/-, D/-, cs/cs, ?/?, O/o. The question marks are tabby pattern. It's hard to say which particular tabby pattern she carries because she's nonagouti (a), with the tabby pattern turned off and basically not visible. Because she's tortie, she must have both non-red and red alleles (O/o), which in females combines to give a tortoiseshell pattern.

If you are sure that your queen and stud produced a solid chocolate kitten, that would be a/a, b/b, D/-, C/-, ?/?, where "b" is chocolate. It is on the same genetic locus as black and is recessive to black.

If you are sure about the lilac lynx point, that would be A/-, b/b, d/d, cs/cs, ?/?. Lilac is the dilute of chocolate, hence d/d.

Okay, if all of the kitten colors and patterns are accurate, that gives us additional info about the parents. They would have to be:
Daddy A/a, B/b, C/cs, D/d, TS/?, and O/y.
Mom a/a, B/b, cs/cs, D/d, ?/?, and O/o.

Again it depends on whether the kitten colors were correct, but if so, we can now predict everything exactly except the specific type of tabby pattern. We know they can be spotted tabbies, but we don't know if they can be any other kind of tabby.

With each kitten, you have a 50% chance (on average) of being solid in color -- either all over or on the points. On average, there's a 25% chance of chocolate color; the other 75% would be black (seal). However, there's also a 25% chance of dilute (d/d), which means that some of the chocolates will be lilac. Some of the blacks will be blue (either blue points or blue tabbies).

You also have a 50% chance of male kittens being red -- either red point or red tabby. You have a 50% c chance of females being either tortie/torbie. Some of the torties/torbies may be pointed. Some may be solid tortie or torbie. The torties and torbies can be broken down into black (seal) torties or torbries and a few chocolate and lilac torties/torbies.

To really see how it works, I would need to create a big chart, the short blurb gives some idea.

All the colors of the rainbow almost!



Savannah Super Cat
Thanks Dr Cris Bird
I know it is hard without actually testing. You have done a very nice detective job of narrowing all gen possibilities with the small info I gave you.
I will copy & paste all this precious info, it is very interesting all the possibilities. I was so surprised with the brown one, really dark brown, color gets lighter close to skin, he was born with a red brick nose, darkened after a couple of days. Had some gost spots.
I took some genetic info with the net, but not super detailled. Can't wait to receive my genetic book.

I "maybe" want to try one or two other litters with my OS (siamese) couple. In case a big black spotted girl is born with nice spots to breed with a savannah stud. There ears are set a bit hight for OS, very good for bigger ears and taller legs, longer neck savannah cats, dangerous for flimsy tails and legs. Might not work at all. But this couple always had some nice spotted kittens, one was half mackeral & half spotted, but mostly spots. My OS has nice tears markings and even spots in the face.

I love the oriental type (I have some demands for a SV & OS mix). I am not sure yet if I want to do it and if I will have a good OS breeding girl in future ??. Not before 8 to 10 months for the next and maybe last OS litter.

I already adopted two nice savannah queens, F5 SBT and an F3C. I think I wii have more than enougt to handle when they start breeding (if they do so). I have two nice savannah studs for my savannah queens. No reason for me to breed my oriental stud to a savannah queen. Non sense to me.
Mommy siamese had 3 litters from now and I will stop with #4 or #5 and retire her. Daddy (Slim) will retire at the same time, he is 3.5 years old now.
I decided to start seriously with savannah after experiencing with the orientals. It is a dream come true for me (and quite a big investment).

I will concentrate my efforts with savannahs, but keep my mind open and still love my OS. (Slim will retire at home). I don't want to get big, want the future kittens to be well socialised in an home living environnement. I am stil in kind of transition to savannah.

Maybe I am not super clear, english is not my first language, if you have other questions Paige, or if it doesn't sound clear, I will be happy to clarify it.


Savannah Super Cat
Paige, My spotted boy is OS in the pic, not savannah. Sorry if I confused some.
No intention of breeding snow neither, my savannah studs don't carry for snow (if I look at the ped).
I have no intention of breeding siam to savannah.