Carykd7kau
Reincarnated cat Moderator
PLEASE. Think about what these breeders are saying. Just LOVE your new furbaby.
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Help? New here...
- Thread starter CheriBlack
- Start date
DumaLove has it completely correct, you should not think of breeding to recoup your investment, if you are going to think that way then factor in all the additional expenses. IF you want to do it right you have a lot of testing but you also may face emergency vet bills (not all pregnancies go smoothly) and you might need to nurse kittens around the clock and sadly you may lose some. We often miss that in the wild, most kittens don't make it.It's not always the joy of kittens but the heartbreak of a baby not making it.
Add to that, if you are thinking you are going to use unregisted males with your cat, you are going to be creating outcrossed mixed breed kittens, whereby it is going to be difficult to even get some of that money you are thinking you will get to pay yourself back for this cat. Did you pay for breeding rights? If not, you are producing unregistered kittens hence even less saleable.
You may mistake kittens that are nonstandard colors with those "part Siamese" with kittens that have the recessive and nonstandard colorpoint gene, which is actually a very different thing. The colorpoint gene (the one responsible for the Siamese type coloring but does not mean the breed) is recessive and may pop out in Savannahs but that doesn't make the kitten outcrossed, it still has papers. Black Savannahs actually are permissible as the Serval itself comes in a black form, this is the result of the nonagouti (solid) gene, also recessive. BUT do not mistake those genes with unplanned breedings like using domestic shorthaired cats in a program. By using your mixed breed male kittens you will simply be producing more mixed breed kittens, not terribly saleable ones.
I am glad that you are discussing this here, it really is good to think through what you are doing. It may seem a simple thing to just breed your expensive SV kitten... the reality is that it may not be the easy money you might think. Even those of us that have bred SVs for some years, we didn't rightly know how darn difficult it would be at first. I wish there had been a forum like this to help me when I started. Really do read and learn and listen before taking that step!
Add to that, if you are thinking you are going to use unregisted males with your cat, you are going to be creating outcrossed mixed breed kittens, whereby it is going to be difficult to even get some of that money you are thinking you will get to pay yourself back for this cat. Did you pay for breeding rights? If not, you are producing unregistered kittens hence even less saleable.
You may mistake kittens that are nonstandard colors with those "part Siamese" with kittens that have the recessive and nonstandard colorpoint gene, which is actually a very different thing. The colorpoint gene (the one responsible for the Siamese type coloring but does not mean the breed) is recessive and may pop out in Savannahs but that doesn't make the kitten outcrossed, it still has papers. Black Savannahs actually are permissible as the Serval itself comes in a black form, this is the result of the nonagouti (solid) gene, also recessive. BUT do not mistake those genes with unplanned breedings like using domestic shorthaired cats in a program. By using your mixed breed male kittens you will simply be producing more mixed breed kittens, not terribly saleable ones.
I am glad that you are discussing this here, it really is good to think through what you are doing. It may seem a simple thing to just breed your expensive SV kitten... the reality is that it may not be the easy money you might think. Even those of us that have bred SVs for some years, we didn't rightly know how darn difficult it would be at first. I wish there had been a forum like this to help me when I started. Really do read and learn and listen before taking that step!
CheriBlack
Savannah Kitten
There is so much about all of this that I don't understand. I can't understand how her upkeep can possibly equal the $7000 I paid for her, but I am not saying you guys are wrong. What costs am I missing? I don't really want a full blown cattery, I do love this breed and I would like a few SV's, and that is why I bred pure blue point siamese cats for a short while - for the love of the breed. But I feel so stupid for not looking this up before I spent our entire tax return. I really thought I'd make it back in one litter. Can you guys explain some of the costs for me? Not just the emergency ones, but the ones you will have no matter what?
The siamese savannah I was speaking of, I saw it at one of the SV catteries. It said right above it "50% Siamese." I can probably find it if you want to see.
Thanks for the additional info, and I'm sorry I took so long to reply.
Cheri
The siamese savannah I was speaking of, I saw it at one of the SV catteries. It said right above it "50% Siamese." I can probably find it if you want to see.
Thanks for the additional info, and I'm sorry I took so long to reply.Cheri
I think that what we are trying to communicate is that in that very first litter you may well have that "emergency" vet bill you aren't counting on. Not all pregnancies go smoothly. Some don't end up with live kittens, some require an emergency c-section to get the kittens out and not all kittens make that. And so, instead of recouping your $7,000 you could easily end up more in the hole with this endeavor. That's the reality of breeding.
You mention stud service by the breeder? But then your girl will have to be shipped to and from that breeder for this if she was shipped to you from AZ to TX? Not only is that an added expense (airfares and health certificates) but I can share my own experience with trying this years ago. I sent the female cat off for stud service, she was bred and shipped back. No pregnancy, a second trip yielded ONE kitten. So that was four airfares and health certificates... I believe that the stress of the cargo experience caused resorption. So if that is your plan, be aware of how that might not work out great.
I guess you saw that Siamese outcrossed Savannah at a cattery that either had an oops litter or the cattery is really not breeding Savannahs to improve type. There's not really a good reason to outcross to a Siamese cat. The reasons a breeder might outcross a cat would be to bring in some trait. For example, when the Bengal breed worked on introducing silver they used either American Shorthairs or Egyptian Maus... for one cross to get that silver gene and then work from there. In the case of the Siamese, we already have the colorpoint gene...it's a recessive that was brought in already from early outcrosses when we were working on developing the breed.
If you are going to breed "for the love of the breed" then you need to use a Savannah male, else you are simply producing Savannah mixes... and that's more damaging to the breed than anything. The world doesn't need more mixed breed cats.
You mention stud service by the breeder? But then your girl will have to be shipped to and from that breeder for this if she was shipped to you from AZ to TX? Not only is that an added expense (airfares and health certificates) but I can share my own experience with trying this years ago. I sent the female cat off for stud service, she was bred and shipped back. No pregnancy, a second trip yielded ONE kitten. So that was four airfares and health certificates... I believe that the stress of the cargo experience caused resorption. So if that is your plan, be aware of how that might not work out great.
I guess you saw that Siamese outcrossed Savannah at a cattery that either had an oops litter or the cattery is really not breeding Savannahs to improve type. There's not really a good reason to outcross to a Siamese cat. The reasons a breeder might outcross a cat would be to bring in some trait. For example, when the Bengal breed worked on introducing silver they used either American Shorthairs or Egyptian Maus... for one cross to get that silver gene and then work from there. In the case of the Siamese, we already have the colorpoint gene...it's a recessive that was brought in already from early outcrosses when we were working on developing the breed.
If you are going to breed "for the love of the breed" then you need to use a Savannah male, else you are simply producing Savannah mixes... and that's more damaging to the breed than anything. The world doesn't need more mixed breed cats.
Being relatively new here, I urge you to reconsider. I'm definitely not a breeder and I spoke with a number of breeders (most of them are reputable) and reputable breeders say they do it for the love of the breed - they don't do it for money and all of them say they don't recoup the investment at all. I will be getting a F2 kitten in a few weeks and having lived with Bengals for the last 14 years as well as growing up with a Siamese. I know the Savannah kitten will teach me a quite bit and I am sure you are learning as you go with your new girl. I know they are not cheap but I know they are worth it after reading so many stories here.
You mentioned you would have your girl have 1-2 litters then I assume you'll have her spayed. Spayed at later age increases the risk of cancer. I can speak from my experience. I adopted Misty when she was 4 years old (Bengal - retired queen) and she developed mammary tumors just few months after she was spayed. Over the years she developed some more mammary tumors and they all were removed immediately. I do realize not all retired queens will develop tumors or cancer. If I knew this before adopting Misty I'd still adopt her. She was one of the most sweetest cats I've had. I don't want to discourage anyone from considering adopting a retired breeder. My parents adopted a retired stud and he is absolutely fantastic cat.
Anyway, I don't know if it's too late to let your breeder that you changed your mind about breeding Savannahs - one valid reason would be that you don't have enough experience and if buyer is not happy with the kitten for whatever reasons e.g. lack of proper socialization, etc. would you be able to take the kitten back? Can you live with the thought the kitten may end up in a shelter if the owner changed his/her mind? I am not sure if your breeder told you that you'd make recoup your investment by breeding. If so, that's misleading in my opinion.
Reputable breeders on this forum have years of experience and I'd heed their advice. This forum has educated me tremendously in the past few weeks and I am looking forward to being owned by a Savannah. If you have any issues with your girl and your breeder isn't helping you can always reach out here.
You mentioned you would have your girl have 1-2 litters then I assume you'll have her spayed. Spayed at later age increases the risk of cancer. I can speak from my experience. I adopted Misty when she was 4 years old (Bengal - retired queen) and she developed mammary tumors just few months after she was spayed. Over the years she developed some more mammary tumors and they all were removed immediately. I do realize not all retired queens will develop tumors or cancer. If I knew this before adopting Misty I'd still adopt her. She was one of the most sweetest cats I've had. I don't want to discourage anyone from considering adopting a retired breeder. My parents adopted a retired stud and he is absolutely fantastic cat.
Anyway, I don't know if it's too late to let your breeder that you changed your mind about breeding Savannahs - one valid reason would be that you don't have enough experience and if buyer is not happy with the kitten for whatever reasons e.g. lack of proper socialization, etc. would you be able to take the kitten back? Can you live with the thought the kitten may end up in a shelter if the owner changed his/her mind? I am not sure if your breeder told you that you'd make recoup your investment by breeding. If so, that's misleading in my opinion.
Reputable breeders on this forum have years of experience and I'd heed their advice. This forum has educated me tremendously in the past few weeks and I am looking forward to being owned by a Savannah. If you have any issues with your girl and your breeder isn't helping you can always reach out here.
I can speak from experience, as far as expenses go. My very first litter, Zuri had eight kittens... She became very ill with a retained placenta and had to be hospitalized for four days... And this was at the emergency vet hospital. I then had to take care of eight newborn kittens... Well, seven, since one died from being laid on by a sick, disoriented mom. I tube fed seven kittens, most of which were around 70gm... Zuri's bill was close to $5000... Then there are things that can go wrong with kittens... They swallow something...$2500... There is much more to breeding than just putting two cats together, having them breed and then having kittens...
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