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Some thoughts about bans of Savannahs

MorganDax

Savannah Super Cat
I know we all love our Savannahs dearly, but I saw this video from Jackson Galaxy discussing hybrids (I think he's a bit of a doofus but there's no denying he's an expert in cat behaviour and needs) and he laid it all out starting with his initial gut reaction that banning was a bad idea!

I'm not looking to ban Savannahs by any means, and neither is he, but I think it would be a good idea for Savannah owners and potential owners to give this a watch. I'm curious what you all think.

 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
He's a doofus.

The point that Servals are only in captivity to produce Savannahs? Ridiculous.

And then he just goes on the anti-breeder rant. None of this resonated with me. He's just gone all Big Cat Rescue, big surprise.

He says that there are "plenty" Savannah Rescues out there? Really? LOL.
 

Sean

Site Supporter
I had posted that YT video back in time or at least I thought I had.
Maybe we should ban Big Cat Rescue. If that were to happen then someone with some care could step in and take over.
Some of the lies that have come out of that place along with the mistreatment for show that they use to justify there claims.
 
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MorganDax

Savannah Super Cat
I had posted that YT video back in time or at least I thought I had.
Maybe we should ban Big Cat Rescue. If that were to happen then someone with some care could step in and take over.
Some of the lies that have come out of that place along with the mistreatment for show that they use to justify there claims.
I did get in the comments and I saw at least one person defending BCR and I pointed out they are not a good rescue.
 

MorganDax

Savannah Super Cat
He's a doofus.

The point that Servals are only in captivity to produce Savannahs? Ridiculous.

And then he just goes on the anti-breeder rant. None of this resonated with me. He's just gone all Big Cat Rescue, big surprise.

He says that there are "plenty" Savannah Rescues out there? Really? LOL.
The number of Servals in captivity or reasons why is not something I can speak to. I have zero idea what kind of wild cats are in captivity and for what reasons. I do know I'd never even heard of the Serval until I'd first saw a video about Savannahs though, so it stands to reason the demand for Servals would've increased once Savannahs started to grow in popularity. There's definitely financial incentive and even looking at dog breeding we know there are a lot of bad actors in the pet breeding industry. One woman in the comments said she's a vet tech and had some guy call the clinic she worked at asking if they could remove all the teeth of his Serval because it kept killing his domestic cats. In my naivety I purchased my first Savannah from a backyard breeder. I did a ton of reading up about the breed prior to looking for one but I'd never purchased a purebred anything. It's hard for the average consumer to know better and sellers often get their money regardless of how ethical they are.
I had to rehome a second Savannah I got and there were so many people trying to get her just to breed or resell at a higher price. Lots of people don't treat animals well. Savannahs are no exception, and there's more financial incentive since kittens are so expensive.

Like he said, it's just the banning of F1s, which would reduce wild cats being kept as pets. The Savannah breed is already here and purebreds can be bred with each other now. I think he has some valid points even if more nuance is needed.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
The number of Servals in captivity or reasons why is not something I can speak to. I have zero idea what kind of wild cats are in captivity and for what reasons. I do know I'd never even heard of the Serval until I'd first saw a video about Savannahs though, so it stands to reason the demand for Servals would've increased once Savannahs started to grow in popularity. There's definitely financial incentive and even looking at dog breeding we know there are a lot of bad actors in the pet breeding industry. One woman in the comments said she's a vet tech and had some guy call the clinic she worked at asking if they could remove all the teeth of his Serval because it kept killing his domestic cats. In my naivety I purchased my first Savannah from a backyard breeder. I did a ton of reading up about the breed prior to looking for one but I'd never purchased a purebred anything. It's hard for the average consumer to know better and sellers often get their money regardless of how ethical they are.
I had to rehome a second Savannah I got and there were so many people trying to get her just to breed or resell at a higher price. Lots of people don't treat animals well. Savannahs are no exception, and there's more financial incentive since kittens are so expensive.

Like he said, it's just the banning of F1s, which would reduce wild cats being kept as pets. The Savannah breed is already here and purebreds can be bred with each other now. I think he has some valid points even if more nuance is needed.
Banning is never a good idea, even Jackson Galaxy says that but then walks it back.
Here in the US each state makes a call on that, so then you would have F1 breeding restricted to states that don't give a hoot for animal rights, instead of states where there might be some care for animal welfare.
I'm just not a fan of knee jerk bans, and someone calling themselves a vet tech with a dodgy story about a serval owner wanting the teeth on the serval pulled... one horrendous human (if this is even true and not a BCR troll) does not mean the entire group of breeders are bad.

To be honest, I do not think the Savannah breed HAS taken off in recent years. It had a really big increase 15-20 years ago, but what they are talking about is the few on social media parading their Servals as F1s. Not the breed growing in number in an extreme fashion, it's growing steadily. There's a claim of multiple Savannah Rescues yet I know that isn't so... claims can be made in videos so much easier because they aren't required to cite references and data.

I also wanted to touch on that claim that Jackson Galaxy made about his business being made by hybrid cats...well when Bengals are the most popular cat breed, and peeing outside the box is the most common feline behavioral issue... duh! That he ascribes that to the "wild" just shows how biased he is. I do think there may be something in owners getting Bengals and Savannahs as kittens and allowing certain behaviors because of their false impression that it is the "wild" in the cat causing the behaviors, not normal kitten behavior (jumping up on humans, biting in play, stalking and attacking legs) that needs to be addressed as kittens. People do create these issues by not thinking long-term about those cute kitten behaviors. We as breeders need to be clear on the groups that this is CAT behavior and not a "wild" issue. Education helps.

I still find it amazing how many people hand over thousands of dollars without researching a breeder. Or asking a load of questions. I got my first Savannah 21 years ago and I guess I was a complete PIA as I sent a page of questions to every breeder I contacted.
 

MorganDax

Savannah Super Cat
one horrendous human (if this is even true and not a BCR troll) does not mean the entire group of breeders are bad.
I do think due to the high prices there is a higher risk of abusive breeding practices for Savannahs, but definitely not the whole group of breeders are bad. That was not my intent. I know several very good ethical breeders, one whom I got my second Savannah from and the other who is getting into raw food sales and I might switch to her. Both of them seem like extremely good ethical breeders and I know there's plenty more good out there. I realise ethical breeders don't even profit that much due to how much they invest into proper cat care and housing, but I guess I just didn't want to gloss over the increased risk of bad breeders due to the high prices they can yield from kittens.
There's a claim of multiple Savannah Rescues yet I know that isn't so... claims can be made in videos so much easier because they aren't required to cite references and data.
This is a very good point. Citations would be much appreciated from content like this.
People do create these issues by not thinking long-term about those cute kitten behaviors. We as breeders need to be clear on the groups that this is CAT behavior and not a "wild" issue. Education helps.
Also true, but I think that can apply to any pet anywhere. So many people (myself included) have a tendency to get pets without doing adequate research or knowing just what they're getting themselves into with what this particular pet will need long term.
I still find it amazing how many people hand over thousands of dollars without researching a breeder. Or asking a load of questions. I got my first Savannah 21 years ago and I guess I was a complete PIA as I sent a page of questions to every breeder I contacted.
I was so excited to get my first Savannah that it didn't even occur to me to do much research regarding breeders. I saw an ad for a kitten and the breeder seemed intelligent and communicative so I didn't ask too many questions. I admit I was completely oblivious to even the existence of backyard breeders as I'd never owned a purebred anything or known anyone who did. It was a whole new world that I didn't know anything about and assumed was well regulated.
 

Moggieslegacy

Savannah Super Cat
I don’t know much about breeding cats, but honestly, it seems no matter how cats manage to reproduce, either with or without human interference, there is a dark side, which can be really hard on them. Reading some breeders comments about how hard it is to produce first generations hybrids does make me concerned that from the cats perspective, the risks may not be worth it. And breeding any larger animal with a smaller animal has risks. But it seems existing animal cruelty laws could weigh the potential problems and address this, if this is a substantial concern.

I don’t think spaying and neutering every cat people can possibly get there hands on, to prevent them from a life that may involve suffering, is the best long term solution. It has been shown a cats personality is partly genetic, and inherited through the father, so I wonder what we are doing to them as a species, when it is often only the most fearful and antisocial feral’s that have opportunities to reproduce. Where I live, spay and neuter programs have been so successful there is way more people looking for kittens than there are kittens. So I don’t think this is a good long term solution to too many cats. But every solution seems to come with potential problems attached. Human managed breeding included.

And I don’t agree that there is a clear line between a domestic cat and a wild cat….. Our cat friends have a long braided history of going back and forth between living independently and living with humans. Recently the remains of 6000 year old Near Eastern cats were found in a cave in Poland, alongside remains of European wild cats. The Near Eastern cats appear to have followed the rodents that followed human agriculture all on their own, or at least they had been eating rodents that ate grain, and not cooked human food, as is seen in cats a couple thousand years ago.

And in China there is remains of Asian Leopard Cats that are thousands of years old, that were also living on rodents that were feeding on human grain.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147295

The main difference between domestic cats and various species of wildcats, seems to be that domestic cats naturally evolved an ability to make use of human affection, as a survival strategy. But large cats carefully raised by humans, seem to have the ability to learn how to become very domesticated very quickly. Messi the disabled cougar who lives like a house cat in Russia, is a great example of how flexible cats can be.

Another problem with all this anti hybrid stuff is that, various species of wild cats seem to naturally interbreed with our so called domestic cats, without any encouragement from us. I have seen kittens from a few unplanned Serval/ domestic opps litters. And pictures of street cats in India, with Bengal rosettes. This occasional natural hybridization of cats has been going on for thousands of years. It seems to be mostly human hubris that makes it a mission to prevent this.

The reality is, most Servals and Savannahs have been captive bred and exclusively living in a human managed environment much much longer than most random bred cats, who come from a long line of ancestors who evolved being free to come and go as the please. It seems hypocritical to advocate that all random bred cats are happier and safer indoors, but Servals who also live shorter lives, and generally die horrible deaths in the wild, are always being unfairly deprived of their right to roam…even if they have lived in captivity for many generations. I suspect the average random bred, so called “domestic” cat, is probably closer to being “wild” than the average captive bred Serval or Savannah- though a big captive cat with an active personality is likely to cause larger problems, and need more accommodations than a smaller cat.

Deciding to live with a big cat or a first or second generation hybrid does seem like a huge commitment and responsibility, and isn't something I would want to take on, but hopefully it is only a few people that don't know what they are getting into and find they can’t provide their pets with their best life. Education seems to be the best way to prevent this. But way too many of the rescue organizations trying to educate people mix in a bunch of hyperbole and misinformation with the parts that may be true, which really isn’t helpful. And a cat that has been living with humans for generations is not going to do well if it is released into the wild. Or kept in a little outdoor “rescue” enclosure with none of the human relationships it grew up with. I find that really upsetting and cruel.
 

Vito

Site Supporter
I had posted that YT video back in time or at least I thought I had.
Maybe we should ban Big Cat Rescue. If that were to happen then someone with some care could step in and take over.
Some of the lies that have come out of that place along with the mistreatment for show that they use to justify there claims.
Yes saw your post on this subject, you definitely posted it. I remember commenting on it.
 
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