Savannah Cat Chat - THE Place for Savannah Cat Talk

Welcome to the Savannah Cat Chat Forum! Our forum has been in existence since 2012 and is the only one of its kind. We were here, serving the savannah cat community before Facebook and Instagram! Register for a free account today to become a member! Please use an email program other than Hotmail, since Hotmail accounts are blacklisted by many servers and ISP's. Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site in some of the forums by adding your own topics and posts. But in order to take advantage of the full features, such as a private inbox as well as connect with other members ad access some of the larger topics, a donation of $2.99/mo or $25/yr is requested. This will allow us to continue running this forum!

Vannah Doesn't Like Other Cats

I have an F3 Savannah cat. She is spayed. I got her when she was 14 weeks old. She was the only kitten in her "litter". However, I had another kitten at the same time that I got her. She gets along with him fairly well (they rough house and have been pretty close since kittenhood - probably because they were both kittens together).

She is about two years old now. I have six cats besides her. All spayed and neutered. She generally gets along with Davy, Onyx, Meeps, and Ginger. (And by "gets along" I mean they defend themselves when she instigates and the dispute is settled right away without further issues most of the time.) She has a tendency to randomly come up and attack the other cats, seemingly out of no where. This mainly affects my "whities" as I call them. Two white cats, Bubble and Creams, who are litter mates I ended up keeping from a previous litter. They look nearly identical. I think Vannah sometimes gets them confused. She mainly targets Creams but it seems like she sometimes mistakes Bubble for Creams (which doesn't go over well with Meeps who is very close with Bubble and frequently steps in to defend her as if she were her own kitten).

Creams doesn't defend herself well for some reason and tends to run away to the basement (where the majority of the litter boxes are) and basically guards the entrance there. SHe lets all the other cats through except Vannah. So I added two additional litter boxes upstairs.

However, Vannah is very upset and ends up spraying mainly on the counters and the couch (eww...). I clean it up every time, sometimes multiple times per day and it's honestly getting tedious. Seriously, I end up not wanting to get up in the morning because I know I'll spend 20+ minutes cleaning up cat pee. I know it's Vannah because I've seen her do it. Bubble has also been guilty of spraying but not as often and not in those locations. (Usually the expected places like the wall or near a door - but it's infrequent and then she tries to bury it so I figure it's stress, not territorial spraying).

Vannah, I assume it's both stress and territory. Except I don't know how to add more territory for her. I literally have the entire living room lined with shelves and even the kitchen has a tall cat tree. I can't even remember how many scratching posts I have. So, I don't think it's so much a lack of territory as who she needs to share it with.

How can I help her stop being a brat to the other cats so they can get along better? Only Creams comes after Vannah. The rest leave her alone and I often see them blinking at her, as if they're trying to prevent her from freaking out on them.

I have tried playing with her to the point that she is exhausted (and the others), even daily - it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

She's a very people cat, with us - she doesn't like strangers and growls when strangers knock on the door. But she's very friendly with the people that she knows - especially the kids. She's sweet and loving with us.

I already feed all the cats together and they don't fight or chase each other away during or immediately after (they do bicker while I'm getting food in the bowls - mostly Vannah going around instigating and the others trying to ignore her and focus on me dishing out the food). And she does use the litter box for regular elimination. She is definitely spraying.

Is it too late or a bad idea to leash train her? She doesn't like the harness. I don't want to stress her out more. She has run outside a couple times but then right away cries to go back in (thankfully).

Anything else I can do for her?

Onyx was her partner in crime but I started letting him outside. He stays in the yard but seems to get his energy out catching moles and birds with Davy (Davy was allowed out against my advice as a kitten and even after years of being kept inside he still kept trying to get outside so when we moved here I let him go out in the yard. Him and Onyx hang out there and Onyx has since calmed down a great deal and doesn't really help Vannah corner Creams anymore).

I want to build a large catio for them, but can't afford it (and don't have time) right at this moment.
 

WitchyWoman

Admin
Staff member
You might consider purchasing a cat stroller and taking her for walks; maybe give her some space of her own for a few hours a day in the master bedroom or spare room. And then there's clicker training -- where you find a treat she likes and set aside time every day for you and she and the cat(s) she doesn't get along with. Take her and a cat she doesn't like into a room. Put her on your lap if she tolerates being held. Click and treat every time she relaxes or doesn't growl/hiss or engage in negative behavior. Treat the other cat also. Gradually allow the cats to come closer to each other clicking and treating only for good behavior.

If you get her used to a harness and leash, you can start using a short leash and click and treat whenever she approaches a cat she doesn't tolerate with good behavior. No negative reinforcement such as "no" or jerking her back. As she becomes more tolerant of the other cats, let out the leash so she can get closer and continue to click and treat. If this type of training works, you will probably have to give refresher courses from time to time. You are dealing with a lot of cats and personalities and hierarchies shift all the time.
 
Thanks :) I do have a clicker that I bought with the intention to clicker train her but I wasn't sure how to begin. The fighting isn't constant, thankfully. I do see the hierarchies shift occasionally (usually only among the "lower levels" though. The main alphas tend to stay that way - mainly Meeps and Davy. Probably because they are aged in the middle. They're kind to the others but sort of lay down the law if anyone gets out of hand.) There was certainly a shift after I locked Onyx out for a couple weeks (for some reason he kept meowing and meowing and fighting with everyone so I put him outside with the intention to keep him out there. For the first few days he kept trying to get back in and brought moles. Then he stopped trying and stopped bringing moles. One day it was raining heavily so I let him back in and he has been super sweet with everyone since then and doesn't meow too much. I can't do this with Vannah because she'd wander off and get lost or get eaten by something - she's smaller than I thought an F3 would be. She's not a pure bred so she has orangey calico colors with the Savannah build).

I think part of the problem is she gets bored/stressed by the kids. I have three kids 5yrs and under. My oldest has mild hearing loss and has led the way in teaching her sisters to be very loud, which Vannah is not a fan of. She has actually tried to bite us when there's a lot of noise going on (not hard, just enough to startle you). I read this is something mother cats sometimes do to quiet their kittens so they don't get eaten. So I figure she just doesn't want us to get eaten.

She's allowed where ever she wants all day (except where the other cats might prevent her from going). They do allow her on the cat trees and she has managed to carve out her own special places that the other cats can't get to her (i.e. she gets up in the stuffed animal hammock and none of the others can jump that high or even notice her up there.)

I'll have to start working with just her and Creams to help them re-associate each other. Creams isn't totally innocent in this as she instigates things sometimes.
 

Patti

Admin
Staff member
I'm a little confused at who is being the aggressor - you start out as though it is Vannah, but then you talk about how she needs space to get away from the other cats as though they are the aggressors?

I agree with Deborah that clicker training may help integrate the cats, but it will take time and consistency. There are multiple sites on the internet, including YouTube to help you learn how to clicker train a cat. There is also a Yahoo group specifically for clicker training: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Cat-Clicker/info In addition, Marilyn Krieger, the Cat Coach is a strong advocate of clicker training - she is another option you should consider: www.thecatcoach.com Another resource that might be helpful is the book Cat vs. Cat by Pam Johnson-Bennett. You can find it at: Cat vs. Cat

Regarding the spraying, be sure to clean everything thoroughly with a strong enzyme cleaner such as Anti-Icky-Poo or Unique Distributors. The products you buy at the pet store just don't do a thorough job. You may actually have to soak the couch cushions to get the urine completely out. I'm not sure how many litter boxes total you have but the rule of thumb is one per cat plus one extra, but in this case I would try putting a few more boxes upstairs. Also try Cat Attract litter or additive, it might help keep Vannah more faithful with using the litterbox.

I think a catio is a great idea - you might want to talk to someone down at your local hardware store (Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) and see if they can help you configure an economical outdoor enclosure for the cats. In the interim, if possible, you might want to consider giving Vannah her own space, e.g., her own bedroom or bathroom where she can be kept separate from the other cats. This may also help keep her more consistent with using the litterbox.
 
Thanks for your reply Patti :)

I don't really have any other places to put litter boxes upstairs. I have three very young kids with the youngest being only 1 and there's no way I could reliably ensure that she wouldn't play in the litter box. There's just no where else that I could block off which is why the current litter boxes are in the basement and laundry room. The one bathroom we have is too small for pretty much even humans to fit in so nothing can fit in there. Up-upstairs is just the two bedrooms. There are no spare rooms here. The kids share a room and I have a room. I made sure I shoved some cat shelves and a cat tree in my room, but with my kids being so little - they've already ripped a shelf out of the wall in the living room (they tried to climb it - guess it was too low) so I don't trust to put anything in there. I don't even put dressers in their room. Just their beds. I technically have 6 litter "boxes" but 4 of them in the basement aren't really litter boxes. They're those plastic kiddie pools. The litter boxes get scooped every other day in the basement and the two smaller ones in the laundry room every day.

Since she's spraying, I think it's more stress than litter box. My oldest sometimes gets a little rough (not like hurting her, but she will sometimes carry her or chase her). Obviously I tell her not to, but we actually have a lot of messed up things going on right now and she's (my daughter) having a hard time coping. She ends up chewing her nails and scratching herself up, stomping, having tantrums, crying about everything, etc. And I think sometimes she is trying to get her feelings out by running or she thinks she's playing with Vannah and since Vannah is so sweet, she doesn't bite or scratch or run away. I have tons of places that Vannah could use to get away. I know she uses these areas too (like the cat shelves up by the ceiling). She lets her carry her and doesn't hide when chased. So, I try to give my daughter more productive things to do with Vannah, but even playing with her with a toy she sometimes ends up hitting her with it (not the stick part, the string part) and getting carried away. (We're coming out of an abusive situation with their dad so they've got some emotional things they're working on. She's not trying to be cruel, but she just doesn't realize that it's scaring or possibly hurting the cats. She's five so that part of her brain is still developing. I try to watch them closely and correct when necessary, but I can't stare at them 24/7 to prevent everything). So when Vannah does attack the other cats, part of it is likely this deferred aggression because she might feel like my oldest is being aggressive towards her.

For the catio - my step dad used to work in construction and does carpentry (along with other things). So I'm going to get him to help me with that. He's been having some health problems lately so a lot has been delayed.

As far as "who started it", I think it was a combination of things. At the time that I got Vannah I had another young cat that was very aggressive towards ALL the other cats. I had taken him in initially just to prevent the previous owners from dumping him some where (which they claimed to be planning to do). They would hit him for getting into the garbage even though they didn't feed him. Or for getting on the counters. Or scratching things when they had nothing for him to scratch. They were planning to get him declawed. So I took him and the other kitten they had. But this one was super aggressive. He growled when he ate and attacked everyone all the time. I was pregnant with our third child and already exhausted. He was nice with people and the kids but not other cats. My oldest cat I had, he chased her and hurt her. She was 14 years old and stopped eating because of the pain. I couldn't convince the vet she was in pain. With no testing for it he decided it was arthritis (blood work came back clear). He said to give her prednisone to stimulate her appetite and help inflammation. Well, it didn't. She wouldn't even eat her favorite foods. I ended up syringe feeding her in her last weeks. She lost weight really fast and became dehydrated which sent her into cardiac arrest. So, essentially, I blamed this other cat for killing her. I think she'd still be alive if it weren't for him... So, I found him a new home with someone with no other pets and one child who promised not to declaw him. She sent me a picture of him playing with her daughter a couple days later so it seemed like a good match.

But by then, Vannah and Creams weren't getting a long. I think since the kittens all came around the same time it messed Creams up. Her and her sister are already skittish and this was the first time we'd ever introduced new cats to them (they were born with us and the other cats). So, I think sometimes Vannah would try to play, and Creams would freak out and attack her and Vannah couldn't understand. In the beginning, Vannah would respond submissively. When she got bigger she responded aggressively. Then the tables turned and Vannah began starting the fights. Now, the fights don't last terribly long, but Creams often screams which is pretty disturbing. They don't usually hurt each other. They did go through a brief phase where they were actually hurting each other but it was over before I could really do anything about it. Now, every once in a blue moon a cat (any cat) will come up with a cut on their ear or even more rare, another place on their head or neck. Very infrequently though. And it's not always the same one. I figure there's going to be a certain amount of arguing at any given time just because they want to maintain territory.

But I think since Vannah is so often at odds with Creams (not that I'm blaming Vannah entirely. They certainly take turns) - she ends up anxious and has small spats with the other cats. I'm thinking part of it might be her age too. She seems to be at that rebellious teenage phase. Whenever I've had cats at this age they always seem to have a little more trouble getting along with the other cats. Davy was really bad at this age and we only had 4 cats total at the time. But once he reached about 3 or 4 years old he calmed down a lot. Of course, I don't want to wait 3 more years to see if she calms down. So, I'll be doing the clicker training during nap times when school starts (I'll actually have a kid free moment each day of the week where no one will interrupt us).

The places she sprays are usually on hard surfaces. Sometimes the couch (I put waterproof covers on it and since she hates the smell of vinegar I'll spray it with that and she won't go on it. Hoping to break the cycle eventually). I've been using Nature's Miracle to clean it up, but I'll try the ones you suggested. I may have heard of those before. My dad used to own pet stores and always said Nature's Miracle was the best but I heard they changed their formula.
 

Rafiki

Site Supporter
Are the litter boxes in the basement next to each other or are they separated? You may want to try placing them in opposite ends of the basement if they are together. A lot of folks here use the clear storage boxes instead of regular litter boxes. They are nice and cheap and many cats prefer the clear sides.
 
Top