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Breeding Nonstandard Savannahs for Beginners

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Paige
Staff member
I thought I remember a thread whereby a knowledgeable member discussed this as a possible problematic issue going forward. I found it interesting. (Was it Dr Chris?)
Before too many feathers get ruffled, I am not against a breed standard. This thread started out as a non standard breeders guide for beginners. I hope Trish isn't offended. She laid down a real nice foundation for this discussion, perhaps unknowingly. Many of us grabbed the ball and started running with it. It certainly produced a lively debate, was personally enlightening to me, and perhaps healthy to understand that a lot of us already have these non standard breedings and are overjoyed to have them. It doesn't diminish in the least the current standard, but emphasizes the potential yet ahead.

Yes, RD, it was Cristy (Dr.)...
 

Kristine

Moderator
I'm unsure of the logic of allowing a breed to falter into health issues before outcrosses are permissible. That's not a rap on any one, just what's historically been revealed with dog and cat breeding.

I, for one, don't ever expect to show a Savannah nor own one that meets the criteria to be shown. Just not why I'm here. I certainly have respect for those who do and an appreciation for what's involved. My wife and I will likely never have anything other than male F2s or F3s so we won't be having any effect on the gene pool.
I don't think anyone wants. Breed to falter health wise before allowing outcrosses. Outcrosses are always considered by breeders when working with a limited gene pool. This goes for all breeds.
 
S

shelby

Guest
BTW- if you had kept Cinnie, as an established breeder, it would be different from starting out with Cinnie. I know you know this, but I wanted to point this out to the readers at large. You have a firm grasp on genetics, you have a good idea what judges want out of our breed and what the breed standard is- keeping Cinnie would be a calculated risk on your part that at this point, I think your cattery could easily handle.

It's not the same with new breeders. It is a risk that puts you in the hole- so to speak- before you've even got your feet firmly on the ground!
The bad thing here is...the new...and some established breeders are purchasing standard colored Savannahs. They then breed the two standard colored cats and they are getting those nonstandard kittens that they are told to steer clear of. Now that would not be so good;>( If I can see it I am not afraid of it. If it was as simple as what you see is what you get...but it is not;>) My suggestion would be to insist on having a potential breeder tested for the recessives that could be lurking in the background;>) This way they won't have to worry about colors that are nonstandard. Then you can say what I saw is what I got;>)
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
Bridgette, you tickled my interest even more. A study of Serval genetic diversity would be very interesting. Take it a step further, What few serval breeders there are, do they ensure sufficient breeding diversity? And how has that trickled down into the SV population?
From what I have gleaned, the Serval is not such an endangered cat...even in US populations. It is probably the most popularly kept PET exotic cat... I believe there is a goodly population here in the US. So I don't really know how inbred they are. And I think a study that could look at that would be fascinating.

Also from my questions, it seems that Savannah breeders did not all get their Servals from the one Serval breeder...which would indeed be an issue. Still, I have no idea how related the different Serval breeders' cats are...

As I said earlier, in terms of Savannahs, the issue of diversity is somewhat countered well by the diversity of cats used with those Servals and coming down to F5 for all the SV males we use. Because we couldn't cross F1 to F1 that means that we had to outcross to F5 and then start back to the F1 etc... so this has created a genetic diversity on its own. So for our SBTs they are standing on pretty good ground as long as they aren't generationally bred by a breeder that believed in linebreeding.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
I thought I remember a thread whereby a knowledgeable member discussed this as a possible problematic issue going forward. I found it interesting. (Was it Dr Chris?)
Before too many feathers get ruffled, I am not against a breed standard. This thread started out as a non standard breeders guide for beginners. I hope Trish isn't offended. She laid down a real nice foundation for this discussion, perhaps unknowingly. Many of us grabbed the ball and started running with it. It certainly produced a lively debate, was personally enlightening to me, and perhaps healthy to understand that a lot of us already have these non standard breedings and are overjoyed to have them. It doesn't diminish in the least the current standard, but emphasizes the potential yet ahead.
I don't see it as a problem because it hasn't really changed anything. We are actually as able as before to outcross as we were when we were in Advanced New Breed (this time last year). All that has changed is that we have to go one more generation of SV to SV breeding to SHOW the cat.

I can see how in other new breeds, for example the Chausie, it might be an issue. The Chausie has far far fewer breeders and hence it's genepool is more limited. Additionally, I think there are less pet owners of African Jungle Cats than African Servals, so even the gene pool of the exotic cat is likely more limited. The Savannah has been exponential in its growth, and there are far more catteries than any of us even know about. Indeed, it can be surprising to discover a breeder that has produced F1s for some years before they actually get online and we "discover" them, LOL!

For smaller breeds, limiting outcrosses for show purposes can be resisted. The Serengeti breed for example, just successfully petitioned TICA to allow them to show A-registered Serengetis while in Advanced New Breed (so the completely outcrossed to Bengal or Oriental Shorthair progeny as opposed to the two generations of breed to breed generations we were required to have) because of this issue.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
I think I get this. It will take several generations before it can be shown after the non permissable outcross.
Exactly. Doesn't mean it is not a Savannah, as it is registrable as such, it just can't be shown ( and how many show their cats? That's not a huge percentage of our Savannahs).
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
This is exactly a concern I have with the limited number of servals that all savannahs originated from.
The advantage is that by outcrossing to a different species, that inbreeding coefficient is "fixed" almost immediately. That's somewhat what the Burmese breed is doing for health, outcrossing to other breeds but we're outcrossing to another species.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
The plain old truth is that Servals were and still are bred to any cat they will breed. Everyone was so excited when the F1s were being produced and I never saw one case of someone saying they did not like the color or pattern on them.I will choose type over color or pattern any day of the week. I must say there are some mighty fine nonstandard babies out there;>)
Basically, whatever a Serval wants to breed with, is a good thing. It doesn't matter the color or breed...
 
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