Breeding Nonstandard Savannahs for Beginners

[Trish Allearz]

Isn't our standard the opposite though? We are stringent on coat color and pattern, yet we can show a cat with bad ears for example? I know, I showed Baz who although his type is great on many points he has outrageously bad ears in size, shape and set :-(

Or do you mean that it seems that pet owners are not distinguishing this?

You know- I just realized that pattern gets more points then ears. I think that's pretty darn silly IMHO. I'd rather see nicer ears on cats then the perfect pattern.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

You know- I just realized that pattern gets more points then ears. I think that's pretty darn silly IMHO. I'd rather see nicer ears on cats then the perfect pattern.

Agreed, but we can't improve that too easily. TICA limits how much points can go to head and how much to body and therefore we actually have the minimum allowed for color/coat/pattern! So yes, it is ridiculous the that our point spread does not match what we as breeders have focused on from the start and that TICA has encouraged us to do...that building the barn before we paint it thing...

 

[WitchyWoman]

Thanks Trish. I understand a bit better now. It's sometimes difficult for an English major such as myself to shake off the shackles of semiotics.

 

[John Popp]

If this is an example of what you think our Standard should allow... a more compact body type, smaller ears not as upright but more to side of head and rosettes...may I suggest you look at the Bengal breed standard? TICA would FLIP if we wanted to allow this! LOL!

Brigitte, when you say that TICA would flip over this kitten, that is exactly my point. What TICA thought my cat should look like never entered into my equation. I couldn't care less about what a group of people scratched out as to what a cross between a DSH and a Serval should look like, when all we wanted was a fun, athletic, larger and exotic looking kitten. The vast majority of buyers don't care if there are rosettes (probably prefer them), the angles of the face and bought into the breed because it's big and has spots. As a breeder see if you can count to 30 before a prospective new buyer asks you how big their kitten is going to get.

As breeders, I respect what you do and I also think its sound advise to offer a prospective breeder to not start their journey with non-standard savannahs. At the same time I believe there much is more that can be achieved in the breeding of hybrids and too often breeders are pigeonholed with breed standards.

BTW, here's a cat as previously described a little closer to adulthood. A beautiful cat filled with serval characteristics and an abject failure in meeting TICA standards.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

Brigitte, when you say that TICA would flip over this kitten, that is exactly my point. What TICA thought my cat should look like never entered into my equation. I couldn't care less about what a group of people scratched out as to what a cross between a DSH and a Serval should look like, when all we wanted was a fun, athletic, larger and exotic looking kitten. The vast majority of buyers don't care if there are rosettes (probably prefer them), the angles of the face and bought into the breed because it's big and has spots. As a breeder see if you can count to 30 before a prospective new buyer asks you how big their kitten is going to get.

As breeders, I respect what you do and I also think its sound advise to offer a prospective breeder to not start their journey with non-standard savannahs. At the same time I believe there much is more that can be achieved in the breeding of hybrids and too often breeders are pigeonholed with breed standards.

BTW, here's a cat as previously described a little closer to adulthood. A beautiful cat filled with serval characteristics and an abject failure in meeting TICA standards.

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I now that cat and actually also know the owner of it too... she used to belong to one of our Savannah yahoogroups and also has an F1 Savannah and an F3 Chausie which was mistakenly sold to her by that breeder as an F1 Savannah at the same time as the other one.

No, you are misunderstanding again, what I said is that TICA would flip if we wished to make the Savannah breed standard include all those Bengal traits! There HAS to be distinction between breeds else how can we give them labels as "breeds"?

And yes, there ARE people out there just looking for a big exotic-looking kitten. When I am contacted by those people I do encourage them to open their search to a Bengal too as that can also fit the criteria. I also encourage them to seek out the breeders that are focusing on those traits (I don't) and warn them to be careful about scrutinizing promises of size in a newborn kitten.

And I disagree, many buyers DO care if the cat looks more like a Savannah or a Bengal. Bengals can be cheaper after all, so why pay thousands more for a cat that can be mistaken for the other breed? That's often why they actually ask about codes, and not want an outcrossed A-registered Savannah but looking for a "purebred" SBT kitten. Just because this was not YOUR particular focus, doesn't mean that this is true for all other buyers out there. You may be surprised that over time I probably have seen LESS inquiries stating size as their first concern. Maybe it is the educational info on my website stating the number 1 myth for our breed is size. If they read the info first, they probably come into their search a little better informed about the aims of our breed's breeders as a whole.

But I don't breed for F1s, and I suspect that is the difference. People that limit their search to that generation probably ARE more determined to have size and "wild"...

 

[John Popp]

And that picture you posted was posted as an example of what we should be breeding, hence the remarks on it's TYPE which is a completely different thing.

No Brigitte, I am not suggesting what anyone should breed, just that a beautiful kitten as posted shouldn't be chastised nor the breeder that targeted those characteristics. I'm just hopeful that breeders still choose to push the limits as they did when a serval was first bred with a domestic.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

No Brigitte, I am not suggesting what anyone should breed, just that a beautiful kitten as posted shouldn't be chastised nor the breeder that targeted those characteristics. I'm just hopeful that breeders still choose to push the limits as they did when a serval was first bred with a domestic.

Yet, a breeder that aims to produce a kitten with rosettes should not be aiming to breed a Savannah per se. If the aim is other than replicating a Serval, then it needs another "breed" name... and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally believe that in time there is space between the Bengal and Savannah for another breed. Not yet, at least within TICA, as I do think both breeds are still refining their looks.

 

[WitchyWoman]

In the case of the Habari, the aim is to produce a large exotic looking spotted or rosetted pet (rather than a breed) with a sweet personality. It's kind of like a chimera or very expensive turducken. Where there's a niche there's a way.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

Has there been a Habari since Deanna's Zoom? They seemed to somewhat disappear, else whomever bought them didn't post pics all over the various hybrid cat groups...

 

[WitchyWoman]

When I was researching SVs nearly 5 yrs ago, there was more info on the web about Habaris. There were 2 sites claiming to breed them. Shortly after I discovered the sites, one of them stated that the cats were not living long -- most were dying within 2 yrs. After that, the sites disappeared (I can't remember the names of the breeders but I do remember pictures of a rather large man with one of the cats on his site).