Leo is a Brat!

[Theo & Shady's Mommy]

I had read your original thread with interest because of Leo. How is the clicker training going?

Clicker training is going well. Theo will sit wherever we place this one mat that he's been trained on. We are working on "stay".

The scruffs and timeouts have not affected his very loving behavior towards me which I was worried about, and it's been over a week with no attempts to bite and 3 weeks since his last actual bite.

Marilyn is not a fan of punishment at all, with perhaps the exception of ignoring attention-seeking behavior - which to an attention-seeking Savannah is punishment in itself. Check out this article: http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/behavior-reasons-not-to-punish-your-cat

 

[Trishy]

Oh I agree totally with no screaming at or hitting a cat EVER. Even when Leo was latched onto my arm with his teeth sunk in I tried to remain calm and scruffing him to get him off was my only option. The time out happened after I let go of him and he went after me again. He needed to cool down and I needed to stop bleeding.

For treats I can get them both to come or go to whatever spot I want them to and sit, but stay hasn't been happening yet.

 

[WitchyWoman]

in most instances, he tries to do it when she comes in the living room door after taking the laundry out.

Interesting. Does she have anything in her hands when she comes in. Something he may not like and associate as an unwelcome intruder (such as an empty laundry bag or basket)? Could it perhaps be the sound of the washing machine he hears as she re-enters the house? If it's mostly confined to this activity, there's something about it that makes him angry, scared, territorial. If she enters holding something in front of her (laundry, basket/bag), maybe that's the trigger.

 

[dice]

Hmm, everything you described sounds like normal family integration to me. I also have a cat that bites, more of a nip, and had to laugh on you comment of

I have become aware of the signs of impending bites and am much quicker now

Sampson can get a bit twitchy, and know he is going to nip me if I continue to rub him like that, and if I get in between Sam and Rufio, while they are playing, well yeah, likely I'm going to get a few punctures in my calf.

Currently, my F2 twins have started to assert their authority over the household. They are a bonded commando force of nature. One cries fur help and the other is there as backup.

Recognizing what each cat is trying to tell you, is the best way of not getting blooded . and then sometimes there is the picking up and object that is fluffy, or looks like toilet paper, well, that's just bad timing, ouch, that hurts type thing.

Have found the best way fur one not to have their toes attacked, is not to wiggle them, move your feet under the sheets, and yeah, one is just asking fur it.

Have found the best method of learning gentle, is when it hurts, I'll cry, and say, why did you hurts daddy, boohoo, be gentle, that hurts, you made daddy bleed, gentle, gentle.

 

[Patti]

there's something about it that makes him angry, scared, territorial

Perhaps the smell of the laundry products? I have had cats go nuts over one of the hair rinses I used to use, to the point of drawing blood; and have had ferrets attack my feet after washing my hair in the shower - it didn't take long to figure out it was the scent of the hair products turning them wild!

 

[Patti]

Hmm, everything you described sounds like normal family integration to me.

I completely disagree - attacking someone to the point of drawing blood is NOT normal behavior in any cat breed, nor should it be tolerated. The key is to figure out the trigger and then develop some diversion methods.

 

[Theo & Shady's Mommy]

Perhaps the smell of the laundry products? I have had cats go nuts over one of the hair rinses I used to use, to the point of drawing blood; and have had ferrets attack my feet after washing my hair in the shower - it didn't take long to figure out it was the scent of the hair products turning them wild!

I think you have a good point. Theo is scared by various cleaning elements that he probably associates only with the housekeeper, such as the vacuum (which he is still freaked out by) and possibly some of the chemicals. He can't see or hear the laundry machine (as our laundry room is several stories below us - we live in a high rise).

He displays a similar behavior occasionally with my husband or I when he wants to play - grabs our legs with his paws and play nips, but he's never broken the skin - and he's usually purring because he's so happy to be with us!! With the housekeeper, he does this lunge and grab quite frequently, and occasionally lands a bad bite. He also associates her with playtime, as one of her jobs is interactive play with him for about ~45 minutes each time she visits.

I completely disagree - attacking someone to the point of drawing blood is NOT normal behavior in any cat breed, nor should it be tolerated. The key is to figure out the trigger and then develop some diversion methods.

Even after consulting Marilyn, I'm still confused - when Theo bites the housekeeper, is it overzealous playfulness, as it is with me and my husband? Or is it really an aggressive display of territory or fear with her? I'm even more confused after hearing about Leo's behavior, which sounds similar but in different context.

And sorry to hijack your post, Trishy! Hopefully we can all learn from this...

 

[Patti]

I would be interested to know what Marilyn said? It is natural behavior for a kitten to bite as part of play, and learns from its littermates when it is too much or too hard because they will yelp and/or walk away. This is the same response I usually recommend folk to use if their kitten/cat bites during play - yelp loudly, and if the behavior persists a time out is in order. However, there is a clear difference between playtime nipping and aggressive behavior, which is what Leo's behavior sounds like. The only time I have had a cat aggressively bite me was due to redirected aggression when it was trying to go after, or was upset by another cat.

 

[Theo & Shady's Mommy]

I would be interested to know what Marilyn said? It is natural behavior for a kitten to bite as part of play, and learns from its littermates when it is too much or too hard because they will yelp and/or walk away. This is the same response I usually recommend folk to use if their kitten/cat bites during play - yelp loudly, and if the behavior persists a time out is in order. However, there is a clear difference between playtime nipping and aggressive behavior, which is what Leo's behavior sounds like. The only time I have had a cat aggressively bite me was due to redirected aggression when it was trying to go after, or was upset by another cat.

Marilyn did not specifically "diagnose" the cause of Theo's aggression. She mainly offered suggestions on how to improve / enrich Theo's home environment (i.e. vertical territory) and tactics for the housekeeper to avoid getting bit. She implied that he could be stressed or scared by her (i.e. cleaning activities / smells, per above), and dealing with separation anxiety from mommy and daddy - both of the biting incidents occurred while my husband and I were out of town. However, he continues to try and bite her, even when I am just away at work for a few hours, so I'm not sure that the separation anxiety is the root cause.

(To be fair, his vertical territory has not yet been improved..but not for lack of trying! Still awaiting shipment of 2 wall shelves, 1 wall-mounted hammock plus pole)

 

[Trishy]

And sorry to hijack your post, Trishy! Hopefully we can all learn from this...

Don't be sorry!! Not a hijack at all as I am learning different perspectives of a similar situation and I am very glad for the discussion.

With Leo, yes it is definitely aggression. I did the yelp/walk away thing when they were babies and would use their claws and teeth while we were playing and that worked great. It's only that I see him trying to use the same behavior with Smooch that makes me think it's a status related thing. He's trying to be top cat in the house. It may be his personality and so I am trying behavior modifications like Witchy had suggested to try and avoid or divert a situation where he feels challenged. When I want him off my computer chair now I call him and give him a treat for getting down.

He is much more skittish than Smooch is in any given situation. New people, new animals, a draft blocker for the door. He HATES the draft blocker and thinks he really needs to kill it. It makes him angry. New people or animals and he is afraid. Smooch loves everyone and everything.

With Theo being an only kitty with LOTS of energy, he may think it's still play time with your housekeeper and is trying to engage her while she is trying to work. If it seems to happen when she comes back in the door then she needs to turn her coming back in a positive thing with treats or a toy to throw for him. If she spends time playing with him then I don't think he is stressed by her, more likely he is annoyed because he wants to continue playing and she has work to do. Maybe if she splits the play into three 15 minute sessions it might work better. I think Witchy mentioned how quickly they can become over stimulated. When Leo reaches that point he is a maniac so I learned to back off before he gets there.