One stressed mommy

[Eddies]

Oh...did I mention Eddie EATS robosweepers for breakfast....he pounces on it, knocks it around, & does the bunny kick, & goes after the ball.... strategically placed lasers all night are hilarious for all the cats, the hidden mouse is a short attention grabber, think automatic/interactive toys.... motion sensored are best....we have a remote control Tarantuala, mini rc car, the ball track, the rc mouse....etc. and ummm rechargeable batteries.

 

[l.i.t]

That stuff goes on at my house all the time. The difference is your description of Bucky's behavior as obsessive.

I think this is the issue - the persistence and unabating nature.....and Lotto's inability (or whatever you want to call it) to tell Bucky no in an effective way (other than hissing/growling)

Therein lies the problem. My cats usually back of each other when one protests too much. A couple times a day I have to intervene when my F1 won't take "no" for an answer.

It's possible that Lotto and Bucky are too different personality-wise. That begs the question of whether Bucky would get along with another cat similar to him. Usually it works better with a dominant/territorial personality to have a companion that is less so. Lotto apparently isn't interested in or is incapable of affirming that role. However, when Bucky is not focused on Lotto and they are together, Lotto doesn't appear stressed to me. It appears to happen when Bucky doesn't respect Lotto's wish to be left alone. I wonder if Bucky is frustrated because there is no one to play with who has the same energy level as he does.

They are very different personality-wise. I've said in the past Lotto is the intellectual, and Bucky is the jock. Lotto likes to figure things out and Bucky just wants to be entertained. It's possible they are both frustrated because the other doesn't want to play like they want. I will say that before Bucky, Lotto had a lot more energy - and in the beginning, Lotto really did play with Bucky a decent amount. But it always resulted in 'wrestling', and I think Lotto doesn't like that. He likes chasing, playing hide and seek, etc. Bucky likes wrestling, biting, hunting.

I believe you should follow Marilyn's advice and not get confused by what we think we see on the vids or what we perceive from your posts. She is the expert. You have to stand firm and commit to one course of action to its conclusion before you decide to try another. I still believe that getting Bucky (and perhaps even Lotto) on antidepressants will level the playing field.

 

[Eddies]

Yep.

 

[l.i.t]

heart the videos, shows a lot more than kitty play, did I miss interaction between B & T? Because I didn't find it.

I only managed to film a short bit of Bucky and Tootie in the 'light switch mode' video. Bucky jumps on her back, she gets away, and he does it a second time.

Territorial...yes, but on BOTH boys parts. Lotto has never had to give a real argument & Bucky obviously has. No forethought? Nope, go watch the ladder, see how he THINKS about jumping yet doesn't do it...repeatedly...Eddie would have been ALL OVER THIS.

You are right. He does have some moments of forethought, and I contemplated this earlier. He is impulsive, however. He just jumps right into things (like boiling pots, hot ovens, climbing the ladder without thinking about what it is or what it will do, trying to jump up on something, and not realizing there is NO WAY he will make it - and jumping off the 9ft window sill ). When we bring something new home, there is no hesitancy to see if it might 'bite' or 'hurt' him. He attacks without thinking about 'what' he is attacking. Some of this is kitty, some of this is just him. But you are right about the jumping off the ladder, and that he did think about it multiple times. He does have some of those moments, but they aren't always consistent.

However, I will concede that I am comparing it to an intellectual cat - who is always interested in how things work, what will happen, the benefit vs the risks - a very contemplative cat (lotto) and a very scaredy cat (tootie). So my judgment may not be as untainted as it should be.

Laundry room: Those boys were doing OK until the female walked thru... see male dominance...see Bucky back down twice...he IS THINKING....

We thought it was male dominance for a while, too - until I was laid up in bed from the surgery, and it happened all on it's own in the living room with my husband. But I do give most of the care, so there is probably some degree of truth in this.

And Bucky WILL sometimes back down from Lotto. But then he jumps right back in (and here is the obsessiveness) and does it all over again (the lack of respect? lack of thought?). But it's the repeated doing over and over and over. He may think about it, and back off twice, but then he ALWAYS ends up giving in and doing it anyway. It's not if, it's when.

ANOTHER VIDEO SHOWED BUCKY LOOK AWAY THEN REFOCUS ON Lotto, watch Lottos ears in the laundry room& bedroom & on the book case..., not once did he really stop focusing on Bucky, not even when he looked away & got caught (learned behavior, maybe)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean 'learned behavior' and how he looked away and got caught?

...from watching these videos compared to what was stated...

I apologize if I have misrepresented anything. Bucky is our second savannah, and Lotto (apparently) was really easy, comparatively. We have owned cats before, but usually a fight or two settled the hierarchy, and that was that - nothing that lasted months. They either were friends, or they weren't. Perhaps I'm picking up on things that I was not able to show in the video? Or maybe I'm reading into things that are not there. Regardless, I'm sorry if I have said something, and was incorrect about what it meant. I (obviously) did that earlier when I thought Lotto and Bucky's 'good play' was...well, good. Marilyn set me straight on that. Perhaps my misjudgments are why things that we've tried have not worked.

1) I'm NOT a Breeder. 2) I'm NOT a cat Professional. 3) I HAVE owned & fostered/ rehabed/rehomed DOZENS of feral/abandoned cats r/t owners misunderstanding a pets behaviors. My all time favorite was a Siamese named Pretty Penny...she attacked anything in her sight; humans as well (that's in another post here somewhere). Lotto is NOT an "Alpha" male; Bucky thinks Bucky is, Lotto has enjoyed TOP CAT position...Bucky has NO ETIQUETTE rules except what Bucky wants. Unfortunately you were dealing with life while Bucky was "learning "... now Bucky knows: T is no fun & I can make Lotto squeal, run, & hide... & I already rule the WHOLE house...see Dad come, hear him roar, see Mom come, watch her focus on me me me...see T IGNORE ME. This is not unfixable, it is not typical of SVs, it is not related to the Breeder...it is because Bucky learned bad behaviors related to an emotionally weak (SORRY) male cat: Lotto.

Yes, Lotto is obviously not an alpha cat, but he has had top MALE position (he is subservient to Tootie, and that says a lot b/c she is DEFINITELY not an alpha female). Bucky thinks he is alpha, but sometimes he backs off from Lotto. No, Bucky has no etiquette. Lotto is too much of a weinie to assert himself like he needs to. But when we were dealing with life, what were we supposed to teach Bucky and how? Can we teach him now? Most people told us to let them work it out. But Lotto (who IS part of the problem, I know) was unable to do what he needed to do. By the time Bucky got here, he was already 10.5 lbs, and Lotto was only 14. And Bucky is more muscular - they were a very close even match. We watched many a fight on top of a cat tower and neither of them ever came out as distinctly victorious. In the end, before we separated, Lotto would just roll over and let Bucky beat him up. Wussie? yes. But was Bucky a bully? yes. I know it is not related to the breeder.

IMHO: It's obvious you want to make this work, If it had/has catnip in/on it: put it in a baggie & store it AWAY.

There is no catnip in the house. That has been done for about a month.

WHY?
A) The Buspar MIGHT calm Bucky down: READ carefully & know you may need a few tests first: Try a LOW dose of Buspar if your vet approves...if he tolerates it the vet will raise the dosage. http://www.vetinfo.com/buspirone-for-cats.html Yes, I've used it on a few cats for aggression with success.
B) Because Feliway will calm ALL THE cats ;allowing it may have NO affect on BUCKY... Takes about 3 days & you will want to start with an extra one that you can put up after the third day for later use, store it in a baggie in the bottom of the fridge. Check your square footage...
http://www.makinghappierpets.com/portfolio-item/multicat-diffuser/

We have tried feliway, and it has not worked on any of our cats that we can see. I still have them up, even though they don't seem to have an effect. Just on the off chance that they ARE working, and the situation is worse than we thought.

C) Because the Thunder Shirt ON BUCKY will redirect & slow him down, you don't have to take it off the first few days unless you think it needs readjusted....watch his "armpits": http://www.petsmart.com/cat/stress-...Lh6W1dBpDg8NILLuc_z6c194jlkYj?var_id=36-13550

Will get this

ALL above aforementioned are SHORT TERM... 6 months more or less.
Forgive me here, I eat my previous statement...for the sake of distraction...Go & get: BATTERIES...
1) a robosweeper http://www.sabco.com.au/index.php/products/robots/robots-consumer/372-robosweep

We have an roomba. Bucky likes it - does not ride on it, but will watch it.

2) an automatic laser toy like: http://www.petsmart.com/supplies-training/toys/toys-r-us-laser-bot-ceiling-mount-pet-toy-zid36-11832/cat-36-catid-200099?var_id=36-11832&_t=pfm=search,

Had one of these, marilyn told us no lasers.

3) and lastly: http://www.petsmart.com/cat/toys/as-seen-on-tv-cat-s-meow-motorized-wand-cat-toy-zid36-20125/cat-36-catid-200021?var_id=36-20125&_t=pfm=category

will get this

I will say that I'm not fibbing when I say Bucky is not distractable when Lotto is around. Sure, he may look away for a second. But as soon as he sees (or remembers) that Lotto is there, his focus is back on him. I have tried food, play, loud noise, throwing a towel in the middle, compressed air and a watergun (all were suggestions from various people) - and he continues to 'hunt' Lotto. You are right that he is a hunter. This is part of the problem - if we could distract him, then we wouldn't have near the issues we are having now.

But no more furniture...no more "Hide n Seek"...Bucky LIKES TO HUNT! He is a cat after all Beginning cost....<$200.00...did you insure Bucky? If you did it could cost less talk to your vet....
Again WHY? Because you are exhausted.heart

Again, I'm sorry if I misrepresented something. Bucky is not violent. Bucky is mildly aggressive. Bucky is obsessive. Lotto is a weinie. Lotto will not/can not seem to be able to teach Bucky. Toot cannot teach Bucky. I don't know HOW to teach Bucky when I can't distract him in any way. That's really all I know.

 

[l.i.t]

I will definitely try more battery/interactive toys. We do have a door hanging battery operated spinning string. And Bucky loves loves loves the undercover mouse. He also loves the ez faucet, so maybe automated is his style.

 

[l.i.t]

I really do feel badly if I've mislead anyone. Or if I've misinterpreted. You are right, Eddies, that I AM tired. I'm trying to work 10 hr days, recover from surgery, keep Bucky entertained, keep the other two cats entertained, keeping Bucky from eating things, and playing 'mediator' with Bucky and Lotto - in addition to general household duties. I know a LOT of people do a LOT more. I just want peace in the household, and for us to all be able to live together - we don't have to all like each other.

This is one reason why I never had kids. Because I guess I just don't know how to do it. Lotto came out OK, but he was easy because he wasn't as rebellious like Bucky is. Obviously I would be a horrible mother to a teenager!

 

[Eddies]

No, teens are wonderfully horrible, your little devil is not as bad as you thought he was & Lotto is not as easy as you thought... Bucky has ALOT of misplaced energy which will eventually calm down a bit as he gets older, Lotto is learning to stand up for himself in the kitty world, & T being female will turn on B (usually only takes a female once but they are different breeds). You have a very high energy intelligent SV, now teach him to use it constructively...Eddie has learned "Off" means turn the lights off,lol. Remember the Feliway, you won't know it's there but they will & you might see a whole new side to your other 2 cats.

 

[Patti]

I agree with Marilyn - it is not the violence of the play but the persistence that is the problem. It seems clear to me that Bucky is purposely trying to wear down Lotto so that he can 'conquer' him. Since it is adversely effecting Lotto and Tootie I would not allow it to go on. It does't matter what is motivating Bucky, if it is making the other two cats unhappy and paranoid it is not appropriate behavior.

 

[l.i.t]

Well, no matter what, we got the Buspar and will be starting it tonight. I think a little less anxiety, territorialness, and/or obsessiveness will get us moving forward no matter what. So I'll keep my fingers crossed for that, and then hope time takes care of the rest.

It's funny - when they were able to play together without the constant aggression, they really enjoyed it - they had a lot of fun. I would love to get back to that (without the final wrestling matches that ended up in distress). They both had great times chasing each other through the house.

Eddies - we already have feliway. It didn't work as far as we can tell, but I've kept them refilled just *in case* they are working, and we don't know it!

Patti, that's almost exactly what the breeder said - that Bucky sees this as 'his' house and wants Lotto and Tootie gone.

 

[Patti]

I'm glad you're going to start the Buspar, and I hope it makes a world of difference!