WE ARE A CHAMPIONSHIP BREED!!!!!!!!!!!

[tkymasters]

The general public doesn't really have the grasps of dealing with the earlier gens. All they want is the look of the wild with the personality of typical household cat. We all know the sacrifices we had to make to own an earlier gen and would do the same all over again..

Introduce the SBT to the general public... if they fall in love with the SV breed, then they will find an earlier gen.. The SBT would be perfect for Joe Average. What I wouldn't like to see, is the earlier gens or any SVs in animal shelters because it was too much for the owners to handle.

 

[admin]

This is great! But it also means less chance of showing the non-SBT cats, and may move interest more to SBTs than early gens?

I don't know if the general public will gravitate toward the SBT Savannah, although those who have an inkling of showing may. And the early gen cats will still be allowed to exhibit, so the general public will still see them. I hope the public becomes more interested in the SBT Savannah...since I wanted to show, the SBT has always been on my radar and I do not own an early gen SV.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

We can continue doing what we've done to date...as we've not been able to show our A and B cats for some time now... if you have a "competing entry" you can bring a "companion cat" for "exhibition only"....

I believe that show management will still be happy to let us exhibit our early generation Savannahs as they do recognize that it draws the public but also that they know they will behave appropriately.

So saying that, now that we are a Championship breed, I am sure our focus will change to developing more the cats that might do well in the show ring. It's somewhat inevitable...and as our SBTs look more and more like the early generations the lines will be blurred. I still think we'll not get to an F1 look, the Bengal breed hasn't achieved that and they've been at it decades more than we have... but I think we can achieve SBTs that look like F2s in the not-so-distant future

 

[Dr. Cris Bird]

How embarrassing. I am NOT used to all the amazing features this Savannah forum has (thanks, Paige). I didn't notice until TODAY (April 21) that Paige invited me to respond to this thread in late JANUARY. I am so sorry, Paige, but from now on I will be sure to check those little symbols at the top of the screen now and then.

It may be of no interest by now, but I will tell you *anyhow* what I think championship may mean for the Savannah. I'm extrapolating from my experience with getting the Thai to championship (in 2010) and my experience with Chausies (which are still not in championship but are in the same category as the SV).

When you go to championship, the Savannah will officially move to Category 1 "Established Breed." New domestic breeds do not always go to Category 1 when they advance to championship. They can sometimes be in other categories that have more flexible showing and registration rules. However, the nondomestic source breeds are *required* to go to Category 1.

On the surface that seems to mean the rules become much more restrictive for the Savannah than in the past. You lose your "permissible outcrosses." However, in *practice* there will be very little difference for the Savannah. That's because the nondomestic source breed rules were adjusted some years ago. Many of the directors and committee members don't realize it, but they ended up making the rules for nondomestic source breeds so restrictive even during the developmental phase, in practice we *don't* have any permissible outcrosses, and we never did have.

To see what I mean, let me give you some examples. The Tonkinese is a *domestic* hybrid breed. That's TICA's category 4. When the Tonkinese applied to TICA as a new breed, they were allowed to outcross to Burmese or Siamese. Those were the permissible outcrosses. Because they were permissible, that meant the first generation offspring of a Tonkinese and a Burmese (for example) are automatically SBT.

When the Tonkinese moved to championship, they remained in category 4 because they are a domestic breed and always were. And they *still* are allowed to outcross to Burmese and Siamese. They still can show the first generation offspring as Tonkinese. In fact, you can even breed a Burmese to a Siamese and register it as a Tonkinese and show it. You still can. It may not be show quality, but it's eligible to be shown.

All a Tonkinese needs to be SBT is a full 3 generation pedigree (documented) that contains Tonks, Siamese, or Burmese in any combination.

In contrast, as you know, that has never been true for Savannahs or Chausies. The SV and the CU do not achieve SBT until they have a 3 generation pedigree consisting only of the one breed (SV or CU). That means our permissible outcrosses are not actually permissible at all -- and a lot of folks in TICA don't even realize that.

Yes, I've complained to various people about that (especially poor Bobbie, lol), and no, nothing has happened. I think a group would have to track down Solveig and talk to her sincerely and courteously and logically before any change might occur.

Consider how ironic this is. The Serengeti is considerered fully domestic and can go to category 4 when they reach championship -- just as the Tonkinese did. I believe the Toyger already has done that.

So, the Savannah is already in a very restrictive category, much more so than any fullly domestic new breed would be even in the developmental stages.

OTOH, that means when the Savannah moves to championship, not that much will change. The rules for category 1 are very similar to the rules you have now. Category 1 breeds are not allowed to have permissible outcrosses. Well, you don't have any permissible outcrosses *now*, not really.

All breeds in TICA -- no matter what their history or category -- are allowed to use nonpermissible outcrosses. That means you can take any pedigreed cat and outcross it to anything you like. You can register the offspring as your breed. That's just like what you can do now. And the rules will be exactly the same when you reach championship.

You will be able to outcross to Orientals -- or even to Munchkins if you have a hankering. LOL. Either way the offspring will be "A generation" and you will have to breed to the fourth generation to get back to SBT.

Category 1 breeds can only show SBT cats. The Siamese, Burmese, and many other breeds are in category 1. They can only show their SBT cats (also SBVs, but I won't get into that).

When the SV goes to Category 1, you will be able to show only SBTs. The only generation that you won't be able to show any more is the "C generation."

You will still be able to outcross to anything you like, but you will still have to then breed to the fourth generation again to regain SBT and show rights.

I think I'll stop now and continue in a different post later to tell you a few other things. But the big point -- the thing to remember here -- is that you never really had a permissible outcross, and you still won't. The only thing you lose in championship is the right to show the C generation cats.

Hope that helps -- if anyone still cares. LOL!

 

[admin]

Wow, Cristy, thank you so much for such a detailed answer...I did not know some of this and am so interested to read it. And I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it all - it is fascinating!

Do you think it is better to stay as a Category 1 breed or to eventually speak to Sloveig?

 

[Wyldthingz]

It is interesting to know as these are breeds that have recently changed status. I still don't get why a Serengeti is considered purely domestic if it has used Bengal as it's base. Sadly, after taking with Karen Saurensen, the Serengeti will likely be a breed that will pass away overshadowed by the Savannah. One of my first cats was a Serengeti. She was an entertainingly sweet cat.

 

[Dr. Cris Bird]

Do you think it is better to stay as a Category 1 breed or to eventually speak to Sloveig?

Eventually, I think that would be wise. I know that some folks have not wanted to touch this issue while we have two nondomestic source breeds that don't have championship nailed down (yet). You don't want to rock the boat when you are still far at sea!

But eventually, I think it needs to happen. Solveig does not approve the rules. Only the directors do that normally. But in general to get any major change to the registration rules, it's smart to consult Solveig for advice and support in advance. Without her support, it's not going to fly.

I think that people are going to need to sit down and brainstorm on this -- figure out the logical arguments. Solveig is a very logical person. The arguments should be not only about what s needed to keep nondomestic source breed gene pools honest and healthy into the future -- long after other new "hot" breeds come along -- but also it should be about what's good for TICa.

Obviously, it doesn't benefit TICA to have glaring contradictions and unfairness in its regisration system. I believe that if Solveig and others realized that it's a lot easier to outcross a Serengeti and a Toyger than a Savannah or a Chausie, they would begin to see the problems in the system.

For example, if you want to develop a source of outcrosses for the Savannah, the way things currently are, it would be easier to start a new breed called the Savanger or the Spaghetti (just kidding). You'd get that new breed classified as a domestic hybrid, and then you could take your Savannahs and outcross them to whatever the permissible outcrosses are for the "new" domestic hybrid breed. The offspring would be registerable and showable as that new breed and much easier to keep healthy than the parent breed.

It doesn't make sense to have to go to such lengths IMO.

It's also obvious to many that we have "domestic" breeds in TICA that have nondomestic ancestors -- but yet they are handled like purely domestic breeds.

It's better to encourage breeders to be honest by rewarding honesty and not rewarding dishonesty.

I think it would make more sense to require nondomestic source breeds to get four generations from the nondomestic ancestor, but *allow* genuinely domestic outcrosses to be used and present within the 3 generation pedigree -- just as happens currently with the cateogory 4 breeds.

 

[admin]

Awesome - thanks Cristy! Exact;y the explanation I needed. What you have said makes a lot of sense to me...

 

[Dr. Cris Bird]

I am sure our focus will change to developing more the cats that might do well in the show ring. It's somewhat inevitable...and as our SBTs look more and more like the early generations the lines will be blurred. I still think we'll not get to an F1 look, the Bengal breed hasn't achieved that and they've been at it decades more than we have... but I think we can achieve SBTs that look like F2s in the not-so-distant future

Yes, and I would go even farther. The PixieBob has now gotten so impressive -- at least some lines have -- that it's hard to convince the public that they aren't actually bobcats. I've stood right next to one of the Southern California Pixie breeders and listened to what people say to her when they see her cats and pick up kittens from her.

Does the Pixie actually look like a bobcat? NO. No, it doesn't. When you see the real thing -- which I have out hiking on lots of occasions -- you know that the Pixie isn't a duplicate of the bobcat. However, when bred well, it's a very impressive breed. It satisfies a need the public has to have something exotic looking in the home -- but with zero risk. You don't have to be good at understanding or dealing with feline psychology to own a PixieBob. Sure, it's helpful with any pet, but I mean you don't have to have any special ability with animals.

I don't know about Savannahs, but I know with Chausies it's best to place early generations only with people who have a knack for understanding cats and want what they are getting. Although in general early generation Chausies are easy to live with, they definitely have quirks that you don't find in domestics. I could say a lot about that. But, for example, I recently had to take back an F2 Chausie from a young man.

The problem was just that Chausies do NOT like to be alone. I went over that with the man before the sale. He understood that on one level, but on another level he really did not get it. He was young enough, I guess, that he was used to blowing warnings (from an older generation) off, I guess. LOL. And then he found out that Chausies REALLY, REALLLY don't like being alone.

That Chausie boy is still telling me all about what a BAD MAN that was who wouldn't listen to his complaints. <g>

All too often, the public thinks they want a exotic cat, but they don't have a clue what that really means. Most are going to be happier with cats that are very easy to live with but which have an incredible look to them.

And it does not have to be exactly the same look as the nondomestic ancestor.

Even if the Savannah doesn't end up looking 90% like the serval -- and I wouldn't conclude that so early in the game -- all the Savannah actually has to do is look like something incredible and be fun and easy to live with. If you achieve that, the majority of people will never want an early generation Savannah -- and indeed they won't even believe they don't have one. <g>

 

[Patti]

Thanks for your insight Cristy! I think that for those of us that started our breeding careers with Savannahs this is the 'norm' for us. I remember when I first realized (during an uproar from breed section members because the then WBC had added permissible outcrosses to the Standard without discussing it with the membership) that permissible vs. nonpermissible was a moot designation other than a code on a piece of paper because by the time we got to SBT and eligible for Championship all of the 'N's would fall off the pedigree.

When I started breeding Highlanders I was quite baffled with the different rules set in place for a Category IV breed (although this breed is a bit more complex since its source breed(s) is the DSH and obviously you can't cross a DSH x DSH and register it as a Highlander). Quite confusing to say the least!