Breeding Nonstandard Savannahs for Beginners

[John Popp]

Trish I agree, just that right now we have a relatively short line in SBTs getting introduced. If we were at a point where there wasn't that short line, it would be grasping at pieces of serval DNA that are far removed. as things progress, we continually lose pieces of serval DNA.

 

[Trish Allearz]

Trish I agree, just that right now we have a relatively short line in SBTs getting introduced. If we were at a point where there wasn't that short line, it would be grasping at pieces of serval DNA that are far removed. as things progress, we continually lose pieces of serval DNA.

Yes, but the point isn't to maintain the Serval DNA in the breed, John. The point is to get the look and to maintain the look (or continuously improve the look).

 

[John Popp]

I would suggest that those two go hand in hand. You can't get the look without serval DNA, and you can't maintain it without some of it being present. Then there is a breed standard that isn't inclusive of all that a Serval is nor what can be produced at the F1 generation. Much of this is pigeonholed by what TICA says a Savannah should be, and that places boundaries on things that have more basis in a cat fanciers ideal specimen than what natural selection would. The worst part is those boundaries in many ways are determined to minimize overlap with other breeds from an administrative point of view.

Also, when its stated to improve the look, I am remiss at understanding this as are we improving the look or making it fit better into TICAs breed standard.

 

[Trish Allearz]

I would suggest that those two go hand in hand. You can't get the look without serval DNA, and you can't maintain it without some of it being present. Then there is a breed standard that isn't inclusive of all that a Serval is nor what can be produced at the F1 generation. Much of this is pigeonholed by what TICA says a Savannah should be, and that places boundaries on things that have more basis in a cat fanciers ideal specimen than what natural selection would. The worst part is those boundaries in many ways are determined to minimize overlap with other breeds from an administrative point of view.

Also, when its stated to improve the look, I am remiss at understanding this as are we improving the look or making it fit better into TICAs breed standard.

Um, so are you saying that the Bengals don't look like Bengals at the show level?

Because they literally have like the tiniest littlest drop of Bengal blood in them right now.

John- honestly, we kinda know what we are doing as a breed group. We really do! Promise, we won't destroy the breed- at least, not the people involved with it right now.

 

[John Popp]

That's not what I'm saying. My view of what a Savannah is, isn't encumbered by what the TICA say it should be. Things that are objectionable in the standard, are things which are routinely found in F1s and F2s.

Using the Bengal as a measure, what resemblance does an F15 have to F1s and F2 Bengals? What part of the look of a bengal did they remove from the Savannah standard because we need to have two breeds that are distinctively different on paper? That's where my issue lies, and suggesting that breeders should adhere to a manufactured standard stagnates the possibilities.

 

[Trish Allearz]

That's not what I'm saying. My view of what a Savannah is, isn't encumbered by what the TICA say it should be. Things that are objectionable in the standard, are things which are routinely found in F1s and F2s.

Using the Bengal as a measure, what resemblance does an F15 have to F1s and F2 Bengals? What part of the look of a bengal did they remove from the Savannah standard because we need to have two breeds that are distinctively different on paper? That's where my issue lies, and suggesting that breeders should adhere to a manufactured standard stagnates the possibilities.

I'm not getting you, John. What the heck is removed from our standard that the Serval has that we don't want in our SBTs?

LOL- to be honest, I think you are really missing the point of a standard. You think it will destroy the breed and yet, without A standard- without type- we would have no breed.

 

[Trish Allearz]

That's not what I'm saying. My view of what a Savannah is, isn't encumbered by what the TICA say it should be. Things that are objectionable in the standard, are things which are routinely found in F1s and F2s.

Using the Bengal as a measure, what resemblance does an F15 have to F1s and F2 Bengals? What part of the look of a bengal did they remove from the Savannah standard because we need to have two breeds that are distinctively different on paper? That's where my issue lies, and suggesting that breeders should adhere to a manufactured standard stagnates the possibilities.

Wait, I am lost... Why would we want a cat that looks like a Bengal at all? We are breeding SAVANNAHS. Not Bengals.

Seriously- am I drunk this morning because I'm not understanding at all- LOL.

 

[John Popp]

I'll circle back to what I said before, what can be present in an F1 should be inclusive in the standard. Then there are aspects of a serval that aren't measured by a judge looking at it's tail and butt which aren't things I see in the guidelines.

I don't disagree that their should be a standard, but question how it came to be. Who set up the standard and what breeders who were already breeding Savannahs didn't partake. Clearly there are breeders out there who are breeding stunning cats that are very much serval looking in their body type and athleticism. That their coats don't match a standard is unfortunate, while the buying public really doesn't care nearly as much as those who choose to adhere to a fabricated standard.

 

[Trish Allearz]

I'll circle back to what I said before, what can be present in an F1 should be inclusive in the standard. Then there are aspects of a serval that aren't measured by a judge looking at it's tail and butt which aren't things I see in the guidelines.

I don't disagree that their should be a standard, but question how it came to be. Who set up the standard and what breeders who were already breeding Savannahs didn't partake. Clearly there are breeders out there who are breeding stunning cats that are very much serval looking in their body type and athleticism. That their coats don't match a standard is unfortunate, while the buying public really doesn't care nearly as much as those who choose to adhere to a fabricated standard.

John- you keep telling me the buying public doesn't give a whooey about the standard and I'm calling you out on it.

Once again, buyers are going to prefer the more Serval looking kitten- if I had two F1s who looked almost identical except one had rosettes and one had spots, the one with spots would probably find a home first. NOTHING wrong with that. It's not saying the one with rosettes isn't gorgeous, beautiful, etc. It's saying that the BUYING PUBLIC prefers the kitten which looks more like a Serval- which is the point of the breed standard.

You are acting as though you know who wrote the breed standard. Um, you want to point fingers- point fingers at me, Paige, Brigitte, Cynthia, Shelby, Kristine and every other TICA breed member on this forum. While most of us weren't present at the very beginning, we spent years nitpicking our standard before it was presented to TICA. And we will continue to nitpick our standard to improve it- it's just not as easy to change now that it's been presented. So yeah, maybe this is a personal issue- or heck, maybe I'm just exhausted, but the breed standard is OUR standard. It wasn't written by some man back in the 1800s. I almost think of our breed standard as a living, evolving creature- it has changed a lot since my first cat show and I know it will change as years pass by.

Also, you are acting as though TICA is this evil entity that does not want the breed to improve. I actually APPLAUD TICA because they permit outcrossing and they permit New Traits to be displayed and worked towards. If you ever sat through an AKC discussion about permitting a new trait- oh my gosh... When the mantle Great Dane was accepted into the AKC (black tuxedo Dane- white chest)- it was as though the world had imploded. It was such a debacle. TICA isn't that way. TICA has no issue with you trying something new- but you need to PROVE it's worth it and you need to PROVE there is a reason for it and a demand as well. Once again, I can say I love my blue F2s- but I cannot go before TICA and give them a satisfactory answer as to why they should be accepted in the show hall. Because they are pretty isn't an answer. EVERY GOSH DARN CAT- big, small, short legs, long legs, big ears, small ears, curled ears, folded ears, furry, naked and inbetween- is pretty! There has to be a standard set or else there are NO BREEDS- period.

Finally, I'm not trying to scold or yell, I'm just trying to educate. I really don't think you realize how much work went into the breed standard. Two or three people did not sit down fifteen years ago, write it, set it in stone and that's the way it is. It has been a hard fought battle on each and every point within the breed standard- some we agree with, some we don't. We also have to fit- yes- into a prefabricated set of guidelines for TICA (as Brigitte pointed out- you can only have x amount of points for something, etc). Oh well, that is a part of showing an animal and developing a breed.

 

[admin]

Not much more I can add, Trish - you stated it perfectly...