Breeding Nonstandard Savannahs for Beginners

[Trish Allearz]

When you put it that way, I guess I was in the market for a special cat with spots.
(Or marbled... they didn't have any at the time.)
So I think Trish, you actually taught me something I didn't know about myself.

When I put what what way? Do you have any idea how confused and tired I am today? ROFLMAO.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

Brigitte, there is a lot of sunshine between a Serengeti and a Savannah.

Also, I would contend there is also a lot of sunshine between breeders of earlier generations of Savannahs and those breeding SBT Savannahs.

I personally agree with the first sentence, but then I am not the breed chair for the Serengeti breed ;-)

But the second, I think there is a natural progression and the space between the later generations and earlier ones lessens every year. The F5 SBTs I have produced are better than the F3Bs from years before. I suspect eventually we shall get SBTs that look close to an F2 but the F1s will always be in a class of their own.

 

[Trish Allearz]

Look- I'm going to put it this way and if you don't understand or choose not to, that's okay...

Have you ever went into the mall and seen your favorite breed of dog at a pet store? Oh, it could be a Pug, a Frenchie, a Lab, a Dane, a... Whatever you fits your fancy. EXCEPT when you see the dog- you don't even REALIZE it's THAT breed! It takes looking at the label on the cage to know that 'THIS' 40 pound dog is a Chihuahua or THAT dog should be an Aussie. The dogs you usually see at the pet store are lacking the particular characteristics that MAKE that breed 'pop'. It might be something major- like the huge Chihuhua, but it may be something rather minor as well. It doesn't matter. What matters is you can't recognize the BREED because the breeders who created those dogs don't care about a breed standard. They care about one thing and one thing only- their wallets.

This is why a breed standard is important. Knock it all you want- but it's the plain truth. It's the best way I can describe why a standard is important. Is it perfect? No- but we will change it, we will tweak it, we will work on it as the years go on. BUT it is necessary to create a BREED that is cohesive as a breed.

Now, I know- ya'll want to ask more questions, but unless you go back to the main topic of nonpermissive colors- then I think this thread is pretty much beat

 

[SV Dad]

Not you, John Popp got me thinking what I was looking for. (the first comment)
You clarified what in essence was: I was off the ranch to begin with. I edited in the last line when I realized what the breed was looking for, and what I was looking for, turned out to be different goals altogether. I wanted spots not rosettes, so I went looking for a Savannah like cat. Not a Savannah cat. I wanted a non standard. That's what I now realize.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

He has a concern, and so do I, that not enough Serval genetic diversification is in the breed at this point, and needs to be continually introduced into the breed.
This seems to me to be a lively discussion with parallel thoughts. I do not discount the hard work and tremendous effort by the breeders and breed committee that has brought the breed to it's current status. Job very well done!

I agree, it is a lively discussion...but I am not sure about the Serval genetic diversification thing... F1s are still being produced and going into breeding programs... those generations are still being bred down to SBT level and this process is unlikely to stop anytime soon. My program has an F1, and goes the gamut of A, B, C and SBT...

Or do you mean that the Servals used in Savannah programs are all inter-related and we need to import some from Africa? We really don't know how inbred the Serval population is here in the US, they've been captive bred for many generations and not all Serval breeders keep track of pedigrees beyond a couple generations. So I think it possible that the Serval component is genetically not too diverse.

 

[John Popp]

Or do you mean that the Servals used in Savannah programs are all inter-related and we need to import some from Africa? We really don't know how inbred the Serval population is here in the US, they've been captive bred for many generations and not all Serval breeders keep track of pedigrees beyond a couple generations. So I think it possible that the Serval component is genetically not too diverse.

Bingo!

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

When I look at descriptions of the breed, it encompasses everything we were looking for. When I look at the TICA breed standard it goes into great detail about the wrapper but is remiss in stating what makes a Savannah a great pet and companion. Perhaps that's simply because you can't easily judge personality or how playful a cat can be. You can do all the things like measure their tail, see where their ears are aligned and make sure they don't have any rosettes, but if that's what I was looking for I could probably commission someone to sculpt and paint a perfect one to place on my mantle.

I agree to some extent, the personality IS more important in a pet than its looks... actually for me it is more important in a breeding cat too!

Yes, the Breed Standard deals mainly with looks, and these traits will be the same whether the cat is in your home or on a judges' table, but I guarantee with ~90% of cats their personality won't be! The show hall environment can turn confident kitties into scared ones... and you hear owners say "but they're always happy at home"...

We do state in the standard "The ideal Savannah is to be a confident, alert, curious and friendly cat." You are correct it doesn't quite encompass what makes a Savannah so great...but then you have to LIVE with the Savannah to truly understand that. And I do think it great (and preferable) when a breeder can discuss the individual personalities of their kittens and try to match that with your needs in a pet. It is definitely something I've always thought important, and will refuse a sale if I think the kitten not right for that home. My very first litter I flat out refused to sell the folk that came to see the kittens and chose one of the spotted ones (there were two spotteds and two marbles in that first litter), but I knew even at 8 weeks of age (when they first met them) that that kitten was going to be way too rambunctious for their household with a baby on the way and a toddler. I convinced them that the other spotted kitten was much calmer and patient. That kitten is now the cat you may have seen on Cats101, Mondo, the one with kids running after him shouting "Mondo, Mondo"... the livelier one went to live with a couple Chausies and did great too.

And personality can be influenced by the home they go to, a loud and noisy home can turn a kitten into a shy and timid kitten in no time. I saw that once, I had to go retrieve a kitten for another breeder. Poor thing was terrified by the screams of the toddler, yet after a day in a room of my home he was happily crawling into laps and playing. So definitely, not something that is easily written up and judges...hence cannot be in a "standard".

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

Bingo!

There's not much to be done about that, importing an exotic cat from Africa is more complicated than most can deal with.

What we HAVE done is made our breed more genetically diverse by outcrossing with many other breeds... which in any breed that has health issues from lack of genetic diversity, that is how they fix the issue.

 

[SV Dad]

Or do you mean that the Servals used in Savannah programs are all inter-related and we need to import some from Africa? We really don't know how inbred the Serval population is here in the US, they've been captive bred for many generations and not all Serval breeders keep track of pedigrees beyond a couple generations. So I think it possible that the Serval component is genetically not too diverse.

Like JP said, Bingo! Let me expound for a moment.
You just introduced an idea I hadn't fully digested, in that the American Serval base could be rather closely related. Thus said, you are on the right track of genetic diversity I am talking about. On one hand it might be argued new African blood may produce even more interesting variables, on the other, it may introduce a devastating gene harming the entire breed. So far, the limited diversity has produced very desirable results.
You mention F1 females are still being introduced into the program. Are these F1 females from a few servals or quite a few servals? This is where I feel the diversity needs to start.
BTW, I liked the comment about high F5 percentages. That was food for thought.

 

[John Popp]

What we HAVE done is made our breed more genetically diverse by outcrossing with many other breeds... which in any breed that has health issues from lack of genetic diversity, that is how they fix the issue.

From the TICA breed standard for a Savannah

PERMISSIBLE OUTCROSSES: None