Breeding Nonstandard Savannahs for Beginners

[Brigitte Cowell]

I'm unsure of the logic of allowing a breed to falter into health issues before outcrosses are permissible. That's not a rap on any one, just what's historically been revealed with dog and cat breeding.

I think you are misinterpreting what the "permissible" and "nonpermissible" outcrosses really mean for TICA. It is a registration code-tracking thing only.

The difference between TICA and more traditional registries is that it does NOT exclude nonpermissible outcrosses like the AKC and CFA do to dog and cat breeds respectively. It still registers them, it just tracks the outcrosses via the registration code and only allows them to be shown when three generations of breed to breed has elapsed. Because of that, a number of the breeds TICA has are known to be healthier than their CFA counterparts...including the Burmese.

 

[SV Dad]

I think you are misinterpreting what the "permissible" and "nonpermissible" outcrosses really mean for TICA. It is a registration code-tracking thing only.

The difference between TICA and more traditional registries is that it does NOT exclude nonpermissible outcrosses like the AKC and CFA do to dog and cat breeds respectively. It still registers them, it just tracks the outcrosses via the registration code and only allows them to be shown when three generations of breed to breed has elapsed. Because of that, a number of the breeds TICA has are known to be healthier than their CFA counterparts...including the Burmese.

Ah..ha! I see says the blind man. So in essence, the "showing" standard is not necessarily discouraging outcrossing, but is a form of "proven lineage" to show that the standard is producing type (and I hope, health!) for the three generations downstream. In case a problem crops up, the broadly tracked lineage (of the registered breed) helps identify where it may have started. Recent genetic testing capabilities were not available back then, so this was a reliable method to identify issues as they began to appear.
The three generations down stream is a method to help ensure health into the breed line (so Mr. Murphy is limited in his abilities to mess up the breed!).
See, I knew if this was hashed around enough a helpful education would occur.

 

[John Popp]

I'm glad this conversation went to a happier place. Assuredly I have a lot more to understand about the nuances of TICA breed standards, while also knowing that loosening standards promotes healthier animals in the future. What my buddy Chongo looked like isn't what brought me to the breed, but I'm only fooling myself if I say I would have still brought him home if he had looked like a furry lizard.

I do think it would be of great value to have an understanding of just how many imported servals have made their way into the lineage of our cherished pets. My guess is that it's not a lot, or at least a lot less than people believe. I also would be curious as to how many types of serval sub-species are represented in our savannahs, as I'm also sure we don't run the gamut.

The initial comments Trish made about starting a breeding program I am in total agreement with. Kittens need to be marketable and it's tremendously more difficult to place non-standard savannahs if you don't already have a customer base. As Rascal states in his signature "You get your first for the spots, your second for the personality!". Of course some of us bought our first for their personality but that's a different story.

Anyway, I think it's important to remember why we are all here. To share, learn and maybe laugh a little. Well, me and a few others like to laugh a lot and I would hope that's OK too. That there are varying objectives within the community is something that should be embraced and no one should ever walk away feeling like they or their pet were chastised for something they care deeply about. It should always be a fun place while understanding that people are passionate in their views or love of their cat or they wouldn't be here in the first place.

My apologies to those I stuck a stick in their ribs and I hope there aren't any lingering hard feelings.

 

[Mrs.CC]

That is because when we went into Championship we changed categories within TICA. In other breeds, for example the Tonkinese, the Sphynx, etc., they allow for outcrosses to be shown.
Prior to being in Championship, we allowed outcrosses.

I'm confused here...TICA isn't the one who changes categories? Who are the ones who have the authority to do that within the breeds?

 

[Trish Allearz]

I'm glad this conversation went to a happier place. Assuredly I have a lot more to understand about the nuances of TICA breed standards, while also knowing that loosening standards promotes healthier animals in the future. What my buddy Chongo looked like isn't what brought me to the breed, but I'm only fooling myself if I say I would have still brought him home if he had looked like a furry lizard.

I do think it would be of great value to have an understanding of just how many imported servals have made their way into the lineage of our cherished pets. My guess is that it's not a lot, or at least a lot less than people believe. I also would be curious as to how many types of serval sub-species are represented in our savannahs, as I'm also sure we don't run the gamut.

The initial comments Trish made about starting a breeding program I am in total agreement with. Kittens need to be marketable and it's tremendously more difficult to place non-standard savannahs if you don't already have a customer base. As Rascal states in his signature "You get your first for the spots, your second for the personality!". Of course some of us bought our first for their personality but that's a different story.

Anyway, I think it's important to remember why we are all here. To share, learn and maybe laugh a little. Well, me and a few others like to laugh a lot and I would hope that's OK too. That there are varying objectives within the community is something that should be embraced and no one should ever walk away feeling like they or their pet were chastised for something they care deeply about. It should always be a fun place while understanding that people are passionate in their views or love of their cat or they wouldn't be here in the first place.

My apologies to those I stuck a stick in their ribs and I hope there aren't any lingering hard feelings.

Ah, I'm pretty sure I was just misunderstanding you and it was frustrating the heck out of me that I couldn't understand some of the things you were getting at.

I love my nonstandard kittens- I think I will finish this thread with this- I have loved nonstandards since stepping foot into the breed. The point of the OP was not to shun nonstandards, it wasn't to 'steer clear' of nonstandards, but to think before you leap IF you are starting a breeding program.

 

[admin]

I'm confused here...TICA isn't the one who changes categories? Who are the ones who have the authority to do that within the breeds?

Ah, I think you just misunderstood...TICA has the categories and once we went into Championship, we automatically fell into a different category. However, many, many breeders still use outcrosses...but you have to have an SBT (3 generations of savannah to savannah breeding) before you can show...this starts at the SBT level.

 

[SV Dad]

Trish, you started a great thread. Your first point about being careful at the start was well taken and accepted. John and I at least, somehow felt an undertone of discouragement of non standard out crosses, which we now know was not at all intended. Somehow Bridgette got the concept into my head (finally, I was fairly slow getting it into my thick skull...) of where you were going with this lesson.
We made it to 15 pages of debate, which shows a lot of back and forth of idea exchange. Overall I feel it is very healthy for the group to sort these ideas out. Makes us better caretakers of these spotted (well some marbled) furry critters that rule us.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

Ah..ha! I see says the blind man. So in essence, the "showing" standard is not necessarily discouraging outcrossing, but is a form of "proven lineage" to show that the standard is producing type (and I hope, health!) for the three generations downstream. In case a problem crops up, the broadly tracked lineage (of the registered breed) helps identify where it may have started. Recent genetic testing capabilities were not available back then, so this was a reliable method to identify issues as they began to appear.
The three generations down stream is a method to help ensure health into the breed line (so Mr. Murphy is limited in his abilities to mess up the breed!).
See, I knew if this was hashed around enough a helpful education would occur.

That kinda sums it up...although the three generation rule is also to make sure that what you are showing is what TICA feels is the breed and not a hybrid of two breeds. For example, to introduce the silver coloring into the Bengals I think they used an American Shorthair... so those first A-registered outcross kittens were not showable as Bengals (nor American Shorthairs as theoretically they could be registered as either breed), but had to be bred back to the Bengal a couple times to get B then C-registered then SBT greatgrandbabies where TICA feels is "purebred" for that breed...that is, mostly that breed hence can represent that breed. These registration and show rules were not made for our breed, they apply to ALL breeds. With the introduction of the "wild origin hybrid" cat breeds, TICA did make a few adjustments to their process...there is an extra category which is what we fell into when in the new breed program.

I'd point out that for breeds with genetic issues now, TICA does have categories where outcrossed progeny ARE eligible to be shown. I think the Sphynx is one of those. TICA is a registry that is very concerned with health issues related to inbreeding, hence its more accepting nature when it comes to outcrossing even very established breeds.

 

[Brigitte Cowell]

I'm confused here...TICA isn't the one who changes categories? Who are the ones who have the authority to do that within the breeds?

The TICA Board has the ultimate decision making abilities, but they don't do things without consultation and agreement of the majority of a breed section's approval. So we as the Savannah Breed Section voted to ask for Advancement to Championship, but the Board was the one that approved it and "made it so". We knew as a breed group that TICA would change our category moving forward, that was all part of the discussion.

 

[Trish Allearz]

The TICA Board has the ultimate decision making abilities, but they don't do things without consultation and agreement of the majority of a breed section's approval. So we as the Savannah Breed Section voted to ask for Advancement to Championship, but the Board was the one that approved it and "made it so". We knew as a breed group that TICA would change our category moving forward, that was all part of the discussion.

Just like we- as a group- voted to stay in ANB for an extra year back in the day. We could have asked for advancement earlier and chose not to. TICA gives us a lot of involvement- after all, it is OUR breed and without us, it wouldn't be there.