Hi everyone

[Trish Allearz]

Hey,.I commend you for being a great owner and getting these kids fixed. What a surprise though!

Sent from my so called smartphone so all typos and bad advice can be blamed on said "smart" phone

 

[wfraser1955]

Not past the Serval (as TICA does not track pedigrees of other species of cats), but the domestic cats used can definitely go past 5 generations. My F1 Nina has an F2B mother so although the sire's side of the pedigree is blank, the dam's side of her pedigree is full

Thanks Brigitte, i was thinking only past the serval

 

[The Kasbah]

Oh GEEZE this is disheartening to put it mildly! So, let me make sure I have the facts relayed here straight...

1. First, the buyer contacts a TICA Savannah Breeder, purchases two pet kittens (and F2 female and an F3 male)

2. Shortly thereafter while at the new owners home, the two "pets" breed and produce an unexpected and unplanned litter of kittens.

3. Pet Owner notifies Breeder of situation and Breeder does not seem at all surprised that the F3 male has sired a litter of kittens (despite the fact that this would be the first documented case worldwide of F3 fertility in a Savannah male)

4. Further investigation into lineage (and TICA Pedigree) does NOT support the male as even BEING an F3, but rather a lower generation cat.

So, in Summary, what you all are saying here is that the Buyer was swindled and research into this matter now supports the fact that:

1. Seller is NOT a TICA Registered Cattery

2. Seller has sold a low generation (fertile) male as an F3 and charged F3 pricing (which is greatly inflated over that of an F5, F6, F7)...which is at minimum unethical.

3. Seller has supplied falsified TICA Registration papers to Buyer, which provides further evidence to a claim of fraud...

4. Buyer has not been issued registration papers and therefore now has a litter of unregistered F3 Savannah kittens!

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the Breeder and why, pray tell have they not weighed in on this debacle? UnBELIEVABLE to me!

I am super sorry that this has happened to you...and never cease to be astounded at the tactics of some, who seemingly will stoop to very low levels in an effort to make a sale. Sad indeed.

All best,

 

[MM3]

Yes Brigitte I agree instead of running for the hills!

I don't know what a TICA Pedigree certificate looks like can someone post one? I'll look for the paper to see what I was given but think it was just written on paper, I'm not positive. Boy, I know so much more now.

 

[eloise67]

Oh GEEZE this is disheartening to put it mildly! So, let me make sure I have the facts relayed here straight...

1. First, the buyer contacts a TICA Savannah Breeder, purchases two pet kittens (and F2 female and an F3 male)

2. Shortly thereafter while at the new owners home, the two "pets" breed and produce an unexpected and unplanned litter of kittens.

3. Pet Owner notifies Breeder of situation and Breeder does not seem at all surprised that the F3 male has sired a litter of kittens (despite the fact that this would be the first documented case worldwide of F3 fertility in a Savannah male)

4. Further investigation into lineage (and TICA Pedigree) does NOT support the male as even BEING an F3, but rather a lower generation cat.

So, in Summary, what you all are saying here is that the Buyer was swindled and research into this matter now supports the fact that:

1. Seller is NOT a TICA Registered Cattery

2. Seller has sold a low generation (fertile) male as an F3 and charged F3 pricing (which is greatly inflated over that of an F5, F6, F7)...which is at minimum unethical.

3. Seller has supplied falsified TICA Registration papers to Buyer, which provides further evidence to a claim of fraud...

4. Buyer has not been issued registration papers and therefore now has a litter of unregistered F3 Savannah kittens!

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the Breeder and why, pray tell have they not weighed in on this debacle? UnBELIEVABLE to me!

I am super sorry that this has happened to you...and never cease to be astounded at the tactics of some, who seemingly will stoop to very low levels in an effort to make a sale. Sad indeed.

All best,

Hi Cynthia,
I actually purchased 2 x 'F3C' male kittens. I reserved them at one week old and paid a deposit. I saw them with their mother at one week and was shown the father. I also saw the breeders pedigree for them. I visited again a couple of times and brought them home at 12 weeks having paid full UK F3 prices.

At 7 months and 4 days my silver/black spot boy was caught in the act with my daughter's little black DSH during her first season. We separated them and assumed obviously there would be no kittens but were still a bit shocked that he had even mated at 7 months! When she went to the vets to be neutered we were told she was pregnant. DNA testing done through our vet has proved the kittens were Bamba's. So I started asking questions. I called the breeder who agreed it was impossible for an F3C to be fertile. The dam of my boys was advertised by her breeder in Europe as an F2B and purchased by my breeder. Photos on the internet when she was advertised confirm that she is the same cat I saw and photographed with my kittens at one week old.

That's as far as I can go with my enquiries

 

[eloise67]

Hi Cynthia,
I actually purchased 2 x 'F3C' male kittens. I reserved them at one week old and paid a deposit. I saw them with their mother at one week and was shown the father. I also saw the breeders pedigree for them. I visited again a couple of times and brought them home at 12 weeks having paid full UK F3 prices.

At 7 months and 4 days my silver/black spot boy was caught in the act with my daughter's little black DSH during her first season. We separated them and assumed obviously there would be no kittens but were still a bit shocked that he had even mated at 7 months! When she went to the vets to be neutered we were told she was pregnant. DNA testing done through our vet has proved the kittens were Bamba's. So I started asking questions. I called the breeder who agreed it was impossible for an F3C to be fertile. The dam of my boys was advertised by her breeder in Europe as an F2B and purchased by my breeder. Photos on the internet when she was advertised confirm that she is the same cat I saw and photographed with my kittens at one week old.

That's as far as I can go with my enquiries

I thought of asking the breeder to change the TICA papers to allow the litter to be registered but realised this would be unethical too as they would be registered as F4A and probably aren't. I'm not interested in sellling the kittens but it would have been nice for them to have a Savannah identity. I'd love to post some pictures of them all on here but I can't figure out how to!

 

[The Kasbah]

Hi Cynthia,
I actually purchased 2 x 'F3C' male kittens. I reserved them at one week old and paid a deposit. I saw them with their mother at one week and was shown the father. I also saw the breeders pedigree for them. I visited again a couple of times and brought them home at 12 weeks having paid full UK F3 prices.

At 7 months and 4 days my silver/black spot boy was caught in the act with my daughter's little black DSH during her first season. We separated them and assumed obviously there would be no kittens but were still a bit shocked that he had even mated at 7 months! When she went to the vets to be neutered we were told she was pregnant. DNA testing done through our vet has proved the kittens were Bamba's. So I started asking questions. I called the breeder who agreed it was impossible for an F3C to be fertile. The dam of my boys was advertised by her breeder in Europe as an F2B and purchased by my breeder. Photos on the internet when she was advertised confirm that she is the same cat I saw and photographed with my kittens at one week old.

That's as far as I can go with my enquiries

Thank you for the additional information. I am obviously joining this conversation a few days late (apologies).

You are correct in thinking that an F3 male cannot be fertile...so given that you witnessed the breeding and confirmed him as the father through DNA testing, it would appear that he is not in fact an F3 at all!

Since you DO trust your Breeder and she also confirmed that it is impossible that an F3 male can prove fertile, it raises some pretty valid questions, the most important of which is whether or not the mother that SHE purchsed is in fact an F2 AT ALL!

It is beyond obvious to me that someone along the line "hung papers" on a cat that is in your boy's lineage. The question is...WHO? If it was not the Breeder you purchased from, then it would appear that he/she was also duped...and therefore the ramifications become far more widespread!

Terrible situation for all concerned, but the difficult task at hand is to determine exactly WHO is responsible for the rotten apple (cat who someone "hung" papers on) into the mix here.

All best,

 

[The Kasbah]

I thought of asking the breeder to change the TICA papers to allow the litter to be registered but realised this would be unethical too as they would be registered as F4A and probably aren't. I'm not interested in sellling the kittens but it would have been nice for them to have a Savannah identity. I'd love to post some pictures of them all on here but I can't figure out how to!

To post pics, click the reply button like you always do. IN the lower bottom corner of the screen yo type into there are three boxes: select UPLOAD A FILE and attache your picture file before POSTING REPLY.

Hope this helps, Eloise.

 

[eloise67]

I hope these pictures upload!

 

[The Kasbah]

I hope these pictures upload!

Photos came through perfectly!!!!! Thank you.

I definitely think the cats featured are Savannahs, but I do NOT believe the they are F2 and/or F3 kittens. They appear to be F5, F6, F7 etc. generation kittens in MY professional opinion.

Not sure how helpful this is to you...but I'm trying to give you as much information as I am able from far away.

All best,