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Inbreeding by breeders

Alicia

Savannah Super Cat
Hmmmm this got a bit heated in a hurry. Personally I am not a breeder but would not take an inbred SV.
To be honest, it sounds crazy to hear someone claiming inbred kittens are somehow better and that finaling in shows isn't a good way to tell if you have quality kittens.... The whole inbreeding argument just sounds crazy to me, and something I would never advocate but that's just me!
As they say, opinions are like a**holes, we all have them! And this is mine :) I am thankful however that that is not a common practice in our breed.
 

Angie Panczak

Savannah Super Cat
I think confusion also arises as inbreeding and linebreeding have different definitions. Inbreeding is very close mom to son, brother to sister, dad to daughter, where line has a smaller coefficient. I believe a book or lecture called stamping the look is available. I have some linebred but it isn't close, great grandparent. I do not like the inbred concept, but anyone that does linebreed should be experienced in coefficient and KNOW the lines inside and out. You not only have to worry about phenotype but also genotype and with linebreeding you have a chance of recessive genes coming out. Sometimes this is good as you can detect them and so called cull them, with outcrossing those recessive can be in the background for many generations. Breeding in general is a gamble and not for the faint of heart.
 

Patti

Admin
Staff member
I agree with you Angie - a person needs to understand genetics and be very familiar with their own lines to successfully line breed. I know that with dog breeders this is a very common practice, but not nearly as common in cats. I'm not sure why but it still seems a taboo practice with cat breeders. I think the possibility of producing serious genetic diseases such as HCM is a major concern - of course, by doing so you know know and can cull those carriers, but considering how long it can take for something like HCM to present itself means one could produce several litters before it is discovered. Genetic testing of dogs is much more advanced and refined than for cats so perhaps more reasonable that line breeding is accepted in that arena.
 

Ishani Birch

Savannah Super Cat
Wow lots of debate, I'm really happy to hear health is the top priority for breeders. Like I said, I don't have a breeding background, I've just owned heavily inbred cats before and wasn't sure about SV's. I can understand maybe like 2nd cousins type thing to lock in a specific gene and then hopefully not again. But to each their own I suppose, also great to hear breeders making sure people know the circumstances the kittens are born from. I am getting a girl SV and we may breed her with Sterling, (the breeder I'm buying from will then sell them, I will just house them) and we where going to get one girl but then we realised the male we thought was the father was shooting blanks so it had to have been the younger male (which proved him) and that the kitten would be my boys niece and the breeder did not want that so we're getting a kitten from somewhere else. Just my preference and the breeders suggestion.
 

sacred

Savannah Super Cat
Hmmmm this got a bit heated in a hurry. Personally I am not a breeder but would not take an inbred SV.
To be honest, it sounds crazy to hear someone claiming inbred kittens are somehow better and that finaling in shows isn't a good way to tell if you have quality kittens.... The whole inbreeding argument just sounds crazy to me, and something I would never advocate but that's just me!
As they say, opinions are like a**holes, we all have them! And this is mine :) I am thankful however that that is not a common practice in our breed.

Let me explain why I said that winning shows is not always a good measure of breeding success, as I can see why on its face it may seem like an off comment. I will keep my comments vague so they can be applied across numerous animals (horses, cows, dogs, cats, etc.) as it is generally the same tom foolery, when such tom foolery occurs, across species:

1. If I show my animal 100 times and you show yours 5 times, I may get 15 wins and you may get 3. If you go 3/5 and I go 15/100 who has the better animal? But my animal will have more wins and therefore higher status. Having time/money to consistently show your animal results in a higher ranked animal. Breeders with more money can show their animals more.

2. Shows are highly political. Certain animals/kennels are "expected" to win and so, often times, they do. A great many judges in a great many breeds are exceedingly biased towards their preference so a certain "type" wins every time that judge evaluates the animal. Careful selection of the right judge often happens a lot to boost wins.

3. Shows are highly limited in what they evaluate. Simply judging aesthetic merit in the hopes that it will give you a clue as to the animal's functional value gives you an exceedingly vague picture of the animal's quality. To use bullmastiffs (my background) as an example - a longer backed dog often has a superior aesthetic and can usually carry more weight and better show off second thigh development/angulation (important for drive), but a short backed dog is a superior animal when it comes to guarding estates + downing, and holding a man as the short back increases agility and rear leg drive. One animal LOOKS like it's better equipped to do its job, but it in actuality it is not. The breed standard does not call for the short back, and it's not going to be amended because too many breeders have long backed dogs and they know their ability to make $$ selling pups is impacted by Johnny Public's false belief that being a champion isn't just the result of putting the dog in enough shows. If I had my way, I would put every bullmastiff through a weight pull, a timed sprint, an agility course, a temperament test to assess a calm assertive demeanor that is appropriately docile around children/strangers, and a courage test because just looking at an animal tells you very little.

4. MOST importantly, as a consumer you are not buying the animal that wins championships. You're buying the champion's genes and the statistical odds that the kitten/pup/foal you get will be like the sire/dam, king/queen, stallion/mare in the ways that make the animal desirable. The problem is that when you are buying an outcross you're getting very low statistical odds that the offspring will be like the parents in the desirable ways. Sure, it's better than random, but it isn't really much better. So, yes, if I have a low inbred coefficient maybe one out of 9 offspring will be fantastic. But what about the other 8? What am I selling the public if I know there is a ~90% chance that any of the given offspring that I have produced are just going to be randomly selected back to the median via chromosomal crossover during meiosis? With a linebred animal, you not only have the chance to ELIMINATE deleterious genetic conditions that are otherwise hidden, but you are also creating predictability in your line (without a line you basically don't have a cattery/kennel/stable you just have random cats being bred together with your fingers crossed) and what the young offspring you are selling to the public will be. A champion ribbon says I have an animal that looks like it physically conforms to a breed standard, or more accurately, that it was the best example of conformation at a given show on a given day. You can finish (obtain a championship) an animal just by being the least stinky turd in the punchbowl - and enter enough shows and eventually it will pan out that way. But, again, you are not buying an animal. You are buying GENETICS.

THAT is why I say a show ribbon doesn't mean that much. I don't know if the animal is a champion because it is a fantastic representation of a breed, or if it's a decent animal that has simply been entered into enough shows to eventually win, or if there are political favors at work. And if the championship is a result of the animal being a superior representation of the breed, it still doesn't tell me if any its positive qualities are likely to be genetically reproducible (homozygous vs heterozygous - though it's in reality more complicated than that) and as a pet consumer I am buying genetic probabilities, not grown champions.
 
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T

The Kasbah

Guest
You will get mixed views on this. I am not at all keen on inbreeding for the health reasons you mention. It is well documented in breeds that the more limited the genetics become the more issues crop up and the more unhealthy that breed is. We are fortunate in the Savannah breed to have started with a lot of outcrossing (especially having to outcross to F5 generation to get somewhat reliable fertility), hence I hope to keep it that way.

But on the other hand, people DO use inbreeding as a tool. Some breeders will do that kind of mother-son cross to "set" a trait that they really like or want. Some advocate it as the only way to get a consistent look.

And then there are the breeders that just inbreed for convenience...they don't want to buy another stud but want to keep a daughter so...

When you say "higher" generation do you mean later or earlier? So if an F5 for example does that mean the cat is listed as F4 or F6?

I agree 100% with Brigitte on this. There IS a massive difference between a calculated breeding between related cats and simply inbreeding or line breeding for the sake of convenience. There is a HUGE difference between a Breeder deciding to experiment with a one time pairing between two specific cat to obtain a desired result (on an isolated basis) and the Breeder who simply keeps one stud and allows him to breed his progeny and all of THEIR progeny indefinitely. The former is a situation reserved for the experienced Breeder and can produce incredible results, while the latter is simply irresponsible on every level and a recipe for disaster!
 
T

The Kasbah

Guest
Yes, I knew breeders do use it as a tool sometimes, I actually didn't know parent-offspring was at all common when inbreeding is used.
Hopefully as you mentioned, because Savannahs are a young breed it won't take too much of a toll on the kittens. I've had inbred cats before, not Savannahs, just kittens coming from a bad home. And neither made it past 8 years old and never seemed right, so perhaps I'm a little more sensitive to inbreeding.

The kittens from the breeder where advertised as F7 SBT, but they have him shown as an F6 SBT. Not a huge difference but still untrue.

Your experience WOULD make a person sensitive to the practice, but then again, you don't have any history on those kittens do know exactly how many generations of inbreeding were behind the pedigree...and my guess given your description is that there were many!
 
T

The Kasbah

Guest
I am not a breeder, so this is just my 2 cents.

My sister purchased a pure bred dog that was line bred...and she is a genetic disaster. Yeah, she is beautiful, but her beauty is marred by severe, severe allergies. She is on prednisone for the rest of her life (she is 3), and she has lost fur all over her stomach and legs from itching. She has also gained a ton of weight, and her personality has drastically changed since being medicated. When people see her next to her 10 year old GSD x brother, they think she is at least the same age, and on death's door.

The breeder she is from wanted to keep her for show, because she is "typey" and she continues the lines because of the look. Being aware of the risks of line breeding is so important.

These kinds of things can AND DO happen...but typically not as a result of an isolated, calculated breeding somewhere in the pedigree. This sort of thing is more commonplace when a Breeder indiscriminately continues to inbreed generation after generation, which is NEVER a good idea!
 
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