I think that there are some Bengals that might be, but there are still earlier generations especially in the show ring.
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Breeding Nonstandard Savannahs for Beginners
- Thread starter Trish Allearz
- Start date
What some have to also remember is that most of our F5 SBTs actually have theoretical Serval % that are between the % of an outcrossed F3 and F4. An outcrossed F5A is 3.125% but my current F5 SBTs are at 8.33%. So by no means, when we DO get to F18 will we necessarily have no Serval genes present.
All that becomes more important as we go down the generations is the selectivity of the breeders to make sure we retain as much type as possible. It's more of a challenge to produce a great looking F5 than a great F1 (not counting the issue producing F1s, just considering the type of the kittens)...
Exactly. The idea that we should have natural selection means that you are simply breeding Serval-domestic hybrids without it being a Breed. A breed by definition is basically a group of animals that have been bred to a cohesive Standard.
The Savannah was not labeled a Savannah until it was presented WITH breed standard to TICA to enter its new breed program.
NOW, if you have a problem with the wording in that breed standard, and don't think it fits the picture YOU have of the Serval or what its domestic version should look like, the best way to really influence it is to join TICA, join the Savannah Breed Section (check that box when you fill out the membership form for TICA) and then have a VOTE. Very shortly, we shall start discussing our breed standard on the breed section yahoogroup I think... we wished to give the Savannah a year being shown in Championship Class before revisiting it, so if you have ideas on how the current text could be tweaked to better represent the ideal domestic version of the Serval... that is what you should do!
Funny that you should say that...have you ever heard of the Serengeti breed? It aims to do exactly what you say can't be done ;-)
John Popp
Site Supporter
Brigitte, there is a lot of sunshine between a Serengeti and a Savannah.
Also, I would contend there is also a lot of sunshine between breeders of earlier generations of Savannahs and those breeding SBT Savannahs.
SV Dad
Savannah Super Cat
Ummm, I think there are divergent goals in this discussion.
1. Breed Standard. I get it. TICA has established a set of goals for the "look" of the breed. And you have to get that look at the F5 or greater level. It can evolve over time to both expand and concentrate certain attributes. Without this impetus, the breed could dilute out to "Moogies". This standard also helps gain legislative approval for ownership in the "closed societies" of certain governing bodies.
2. Genetic Creativity. The serendipitous cross breeding of the Serval to a domestic cat has resulted in an extraordinary pet. John Popp and I at least, feel this is because of a strong Serval bloodline for size, spots, energy, intelligence, playfulness, loyalty (like a dog), and health. The domestic blood contributes domestication (up to a point because cats overall have their own way of dealing with humans!), affection, and a basis for species knowledge (as in health), among may other attributes.
The point JP I believe is trying to argue, the breed standard is essentially discouraging in the long run the continued production of the F1, F2, F3, and F4 generations. If you read these boards, it is these generations that a large amount of discussions and praise is being brought forward. Essentially I will argue, these generations need to be continued not only for the future breeding stock to continually filter in some Serval blood, but to preserve the early generation uniqueness of incredible energy and inquisitiveness. Yes, these are "designer" cats. I would feel a great loss if the point in time occurs, that the breed is so established that the Serval lineage be shut down.
I realize how hard those of you on the breed committee are working to get the restrictive laws changed. And I understand how you have to shoehorn the later generations to get a foot hold. But I am confident there is a large amount of early generation owners who absolutely know through experience the early generations are not in any way a threat to humans.
This does not mean in any way that the SBT showing goal needs to be changed. I am sure some of the early generation owners would like to show their cats. I can tell you some of us could care less. I know John and I feel these cats are precious, and do not want to see the continued early generation production discouraged. I am of the strong opinion the early generations are a lot more lively than the F5 and greater. That's ok, because enough information is out here to get potential buyers the information they need to make a good decision about which generation would fit best for them.
He has a concern, and so do I, that not enough Serval genetic diversification is in the breed at this point, and needs to be continually introduced into the breed.
This seems to me to be a lively discussion with parallel thoughts. I do not discount the hard work and tremendous effort by the breeders and breed committee that has brought the breed to it's current status. Job very well done!
1. Breed Standard. I get it. TICA has established a set of goals for the "look" of the breed. And you have to get that look at the F5 or greater level. It can evolve over time to both expand and concentrate certain attributes. Without this impetus, the breed could dilute out to "Moogies". This standard also helps gain legislative approval for ownership in the "closed societies" of certain governing bodies.
2. Genetic Creativity. The serendipitous cross breeding of the Serval to a domestic cat has resulted in an extraordinary pet. John Popp and I at least, feel this is because of a strong Serval bloodline for size, spots, energy, intelligence, playfulness, loyalty (like a dog), and health. The domestic blood contributes domestication (up to a point because cats overall have their own way of dealing with humans!), affection, and a basis for species knowledge (as in health), among may other attributes.
The point JP I believe is trying to argue, the breed standard is essentially discouraging in the long run the continued production of the F1, F2, F3, and F4 generations. If you read these boards, it is these generations that a large amount of discussions and praise is being brought forward. Essentially I will argue, these generations need to be continued not only for the future breeding stock to continually filter in some Serval blood, but to preserve the early generation uniqueness of incredible energy and inquisitiveness. Yes, these are "designer" cats. I would feel a great loss if the point in time occurs, that the breed is so established that the Serval lineage be shut down.
I realize how hard those of you on the breed committee are working to get the restrictive laws changed. And I understand how you have to shoehorn the later generations to get a foot hold. But I am confident there is a large amount of early generation owners who absolutely know through experience the early generations are not in any way a threat to humans.
This does not mean in any way that the SBT showing goal needs to be changed. I am sure some of the early generation owners would like to show their cats. I can tell you some of us could care less. I know John and I feel these cats are precious, and do not want to see the continued early generation production discouraged. I am of the strong opinion the early generations are a lot more lively than the F5 and greater. That's ok, because enough information is out here to get potential buyers the information they need to make a good decision about which generation would fit best for them.
He has a concern, and so do I, that not enough Serval genetic diversification is in the breed at this point, and needs to be continually introduced into the breed.
This seems to me to be a lively discussion with parallel thoughts. I do not discount the hard work and tremendous effort by the breeders and breed committee that has brought the breed to it's current status. Job very well done!
John Popp
Site Supporter
You certainly know there are early generation breeders that use outcrosses in their program and that is outside the breed standard. Very much serval looking, but clearly outside the breed standard.
Trish Allearz
Moderator
John- it doesn't MATTER what a Serval is crossed to- you get an F1A any which way.
Do you know what our breed standard is? Because it doesn't sound like you understand it.
And no, I don't know many reputable, good breeders using outcrossing for their F2s/F3s and so on... I'm sorry if you keep referring to the mass kitten producers on the market and I don't know what they are up to- frankly, I could care less. If you aren't working to improve the breed, you really aren't on my radar.
John Popp
Site Supporter
Yes Trish, I can read and use a search engine.
Please qualify what is a good and reputable breeder.
Also, what is improving the breed? Is it tight adherence to the TICA breed standard in a breeding program?
I'm the very proud owner of a male F3C that came from a well established and long standing breeder. I don't know if they qualify as good or reputable, but they listened to what my wife and I wanted. They were very much unlike other breeders, who could recite lots of typey stuff that frankly I could care less about, as we had certainly made it clear we were looking for a kitten that was intelligent, playful and had loads of personality. The wrapper didn't matter, and it was pretty much a misnomer that we ended up with a prototypical F3.
When I look at descriptions of the breed, it encompasses everything we were looking for. When I look at the TICA breed standard it goes into great detail about the wrapper but is remiss in stating what makes a Savannah a great pet and companion. Perhaps that's simply because you can't easily judge personality or how playful a cat can be. You can do all the things like measure their tail, see where their ears are aligned and make sure they don't have any rosettes, but if that's what I was looking for I could probably commission someone to sculpt and paint a perfect one to place on my mantle.
Please qualify what is a good and reputable breeder.
Also, what is improving the breed? Is it tight adherence to the TICA breed standard in a breeding program?
I'm the very proud owner of a male F3C that came from a well established and long standing breeder. I don't know if they qualify as good or reputable, but they listened to what my wife and I wanted. They were very much unlike other breeders, who could recite lots of typey stuff that frankly I could care less about, as we had certainly made it clear we were looking for a kitten that was intelligent, playful and had loads of personality. The wrapper didn't matter, and it was pretty much a misnomer that we ended up with a prototypical F3.
When I look at descriptions of the breed, it encompasses everything we were looking for. When I look at the TICA breed standard it goes into great detail about the wrapper but is remiss in stating what makes a Savannah a great pet and companion. Perhaps that's simply because you can't easily judge personality or how playful a cat can be. You can do all the things like measure their tail, see where their ears are aligned and make sure they don't have any rosettes, but if that's what I was looking for I could probably commission someone to sculpt and paint a perfect one to place on my mantle.
