S
shelby
Guest
The cats are not as vain as the human male is. The procedure allows everyone to live in harmony and the boy is none the wiser. I promise a female will not shun him ;>) LOL
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Fertility Testing Before Neutering
- Thread starter ScottKelly911
- Start date
Lori Greer
Cahaba Cats
I certainly wouldn't expect the women of this forum to understand what a difficult decision this is for us men.
Oh pleeaazzzz... he won't be any less a guy, but can enjoy the best life too. I'm spayed, does that mean I'm any less a woman? Think carefully on your reply. LOL
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But what a shame it would be to find out after the fact that any F3 might have been that 1 in a million fertile boy.
Hey John, if aesthetics worry you, there's always neuticles for the cherished pet. http://www.neuticles.com/natural.php
There are a few options you could use to test fertility before neuter, although it depends on how keen your vet is to help you with this, or what access you have to a reproductive specialist vet. Electroejaculation is not offered at many places, it's a very specific piece of equipment. There is a method using domitor as a sedative where you can flush a sperm sample out to examine... Kim Orrell (Sweetspots Savannahs) sent me a paper on that some time back so probably can get that to you if you contacted her. We did try that when neutering my black Baz years ago as some thought being a high % F5C might hold some hope of fertility (even though his Serval % at 14% is more F3 so I really didn't think it likely) but there was no sperm and then analysis of his testicles showed no signs of the kind of development required to produce sperm.
The reproductive specialist vet I have taken some of my cats to, prefers the fine needle aspirate method Patti mentioned. We did that when testing an F5B male I had that was fertile then lost fertility in later life. We were able to see that there was inflammatory cells moving into the testicular tissue likely causing the infertility.
Does Shelby have particularly well-developed testicles to make you think that at F3 he might be the world's first fertile F3 male? Generally speaking, if the testicles are really small (and often they are at F1 to F3 proportionally small testicles) then there's less chance there is the tissue development such that sperm can be produced... I see fertility in our males to be dependent on a number of steps...the first is that the structure of the testis has to develop (all the little tubules, septa and lobules etc), and then they have to make functional sperm. My first F5 male had somewhat the structures but the second step failed, none of the sperm made in his testicles were functional, none swam forwards! Broken tails, deformed tails, tails curled around the sperm body...things like that. So that male had healthy big testicles, had all the drive to breed females but after a number of already-proven females didn't conceive we did the testing to show that the sperm were just not functional and he was neutered. Some males can have smaller testicles and still prove fertile, just it seems logical to me that if there is not much testicle then likely there isn't too much sperm-producing tissue there either!
I'd be neutering Shelby if he's F3...
The reproductive specialist vet I have taken some of my cats to, prefers the fine needle aspirate method Patti mentioned. We did that when testing an F5B male I had that was fertile then lost fertility in later life. We were able to see that there was inflammatory cells moving into the testicular tissue likely causing the infertility.
Does Shelby have particularly well-developed testicles to make you think that at F3 he might be the world's first fertile F3 male? Generally speaking, if the testicles are really small (and often they are at F1 to F3 proportionally small testicles) then there's less chance there is the tissue development such that sperm can be produced... I see fertility in our males to be dependent on a number of steps...the first is that the structure of the testis has to develop (all the little tubules, septa and lobules etc), and then they have to make functional sperm. My first F5 male had somewhat the structures but the second step failed, none of the sperm made in his testicles were functional, none swam forwards! Broken tails, deformed tails, tails curled around the sperm body...things like that. So that male had healthy big testicles, had all the drive to breed females but after a number of already-proven females didn't conceive we did the testing to show that the sperm were just not functional and he was neutered. Some males can have smaller testicles and still prove fertile, just it seems logical to me that if there is not much testicle then likely there isn't too much sperm-producing tissue there either!
I'd be neutering Shelby if he's F3...
SV Dad
Savannah Super Cat
Uhhh....... I get the concept, but the cost to benefit, i.e., the million tests ($$$,$$$,$$$), is hard to justify the expense to find that one kitty.
John Popp
Site Supporter
Chongo and I went out for a beer after his surgery. I explained the motivation and despite being understanding, he said he was definitely going to miss his tackle blowing in the breeze. I bought him another beer and apologized. I'm just hopeful I never come home to a really large carrier.
ScottKelly911
Savannah Super Cat
First let me say thank you to everyone who replied. You're experience and advice means a lot to me and has been really informative and lead to some of the funniest Forum related quips and reply's I've seen in a LONG time!!! (no pun intended, ok maybe a little bit intended lol)
The process from what you guys have been describing does seem quite invasive and I truly don't believe a cat or dog (or even a human for that matter to a lesser degree lol) should ever be put under unless absolutely necessary, such as for surgeries. I'm pretty sure I read that there had been 2 documented F3's that were fertile and maybe a dozen or so F4's. But I would think you guys would know about them if they were more than just rumor, so maybe what I read was just hearsay or later proven to be untrue such as maybe sharing living quarters with a fertile male of different gen etc. I agree with you guys, he definitely needs to be snipped at this point before he starts exhibiting other behaviors associated with an intact male. Until now it's just the yowling, but this evening he started doing the face/cheek rubbing onto inanimate objects and other less desirable behaviors can't be too far away if I wait much longer and I certainly don't want to get to that point.
As for why I would think he may be fertile? I guess realistically there's nothing that would make me think that he, more so than any other F3 would be, probably just wishful thinking. I love this little guy, he's got beautiful "Type" from everything I've learned and more importantly carries such an amazing personality that I'd love to see him be able to pass on his traits if possible.
Brigitte, the little guy is hung like a Clydesdale in relation to his size, er, I mean, well developed?
So at least from what you wrote about being well developed, yeah I think he has that covered. Excuse the picture, I swear it's science and not pornographic hahahha
I think I'm going to talk to my vet tomorrow and ask what he says. He used to own a Serval and is very aware of Savannahs and their idiosyncrasies. But I don't want to do anything that could be harmful to Shelby, even if it's with good intention.
Patti, That's a great idea to contact Dr. Murphy to see if he wants them in order to be able to help understand SV's a little more. If he's interested, then I'll probably do that if it could help us understand SV's biological underpinnings better.
Paige, yeah time has FLOWN BY!!!! OMG, I can't believe Shelby's almost a year old already! Ideally I wanted to do it when he was about 7-9 months, but they went by so fast, I blinked and they had passed already.
John, Rascaldad and Deborah, OMG you guys are hilarious! I vote John SVCC comedian of the year and we're only in February, can't wait to see what the rest of the year has in store hahaha
Thanks again for your guys replies. SVCC THE BEST sv related site on the web!
The process from what you guys have been describing does seem quite invasive and I truly don't believe a cat or dog (or even a human for that matter to a lesser degree lol) should ever be put under unless absolutely necessary, such as for surgeries. I'm pretty sure I read that there had been 2 documented F3's that were fertile and maybe a dozen or so F4's. But I would think you guys would know about them if they were more than just rumor, so maybe what I read was just hearsay or later proven to be untrue such as maybe sharing living quarters with a fertile male of different gen etc. I agree with you guys, he definitely needs to be snipped at this point before he starts exhibiting other behaviors associated with an intact male. Until now it's just the yowling, but this evening he started doing the face/cheek rubbing onto inanimate objects and other less desirable behaviors can't be too far away if I wait much longer and I certainly don't want to get to that point.
As for why I would think he may be fertile? I guess realistically there's nothing that would make me think that he, more so than any other F3 would be, probably just wishful thinking. I love this little guy, he's got beautiful "Type" from everything I've learned and more importantly carries such an amazing personality that I'd love to see him be able to pass on his traits if possible.
Brigitte, the little guy is hung like a Clydesdale in relation to his size, er, I mean, well developed?
So at least from what you wrote about being well developed, yeah I think he has that covered. Excuse the picture, I swear it's science and not pornographic hahahha I think I'm going to talk to my vet tomorrow and ask what he says. He used to own a Serval and is very aware of Savannahs and their idiosyncrasies. But I don't want to do anything that could be harmful to Shelby, even if it's with good intention.
Patti, That's a great idea to contact Dr. Murphy to see if he wants them in order to be able to help understand SV's a little more. If he's interested, then I'll probably do that if it could help us understand SV's biological underpinnings better.
Paige, yeah time has FLOWN BY!!!! OMG, I can't believe Shelby's almost a year old already! Ideally I wanted to do it when he was about 7-9 months, but they went by so fast, I blinked and they had passed already.
John, Rascaldad and Deborah, OMG you guys are hilarious! I vote John SVCC comedian of the year and we're only in February, can't wait to see what the rest of the year has in store hahaha
Thanks again for your guys replies. SVCC THE BEST sv related site on the web!
ScottKelly911
Savannah Super Cat
Oops, the photos wouldn't load for some reason.