Savannah Cat Chat - THE Place for Savannah Cat Talk

Welcome to the Savannah Cat Chat Forum! Our forum has been in existence since 2012 and is the only one of its kind. We were here, serving the savannah cat community before Facebook and Instagram! Register for a free account today to become a member! Please use an email program other than Hotmail, since Hotmail accounts are blacklisted by many servers and ISP's. Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site in some of the forums by adding your own topics and posts. But in order to take advantage of the full features, such as a private inbox as well as connect with other members ad access some of the larger topics, a donation of $2.99/mo or $25/yr is requested. This will allow us to continue running this forum!

Inbreeding by breeders

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
Thank you so much, Pam, I'm proud of my babies.... Health is of utmost importance to me, and then temperament and then type...as it should be and is to most of the great breeders on this forum :)

I think the kittens produced by many breeders (including Pam) show how selective programs produce superior results. I think they also show that inbreeding is not a necessary tool...
 

SV Dad

Savannah Super Cat
From the sidelines..... It is quite refreshing to hear that patient healthy selective breeding is not only occurring, but paying nice dividends. Yes it takes time, but this approach can deliver a very healthy breed in the long run.:)
 

sacred

Savannah Super Cat
From the sidelines..... It is quite refreshing to hear that patient healthy selective breeding is not only occurring, but paying nice dividends. Yes it takes time, but this approach can deliver a very healthy breed in the long run.:)

I guess we can all just agree to disagree. Careful linebreeding will, ultimately, eliminate most congenital health problems as they can be selected out in a superior way to outcrossing, which allows the detrimental genotype to remain and new deleterious genetics to enter the progeny in an uncontrolled and unknowable way. Selective Outcrossing has NO controls for what you're cooking in the kitchen because you don't really know the ingredients you're putting in the soup.

Linebreeding isn't perfect. IMHO the biggest risk is that you lock something into your line that doesn't manifest early and thereby breed yourself into a corner - but with tight linebreeding you can at least outcross your way out of it and preserve the majority of the improvements of your strain - especially if outcrossing to another similar line with the same strengths. If you find something patently unacceptable (genetic conditions resulting in lameness, death, etc.) then your strain is lost, and that's a big risk for a breeder as their "line" will now be known for having locked in a potential defect.

I would, personally, not call 1 kitten per litter a success in reproducing type en general. For me, successful type would be more like: My Line + Outcross = My line's phenotype. But I confess to having a bias towards dogs/molossers and am not sure what general expectations are for catteries. Especially hybrids, though I think once you're down to the F5 or so generation that's no longer as much of a concern. At any rate, the point will be moot in 50 - 100 years as we'll just go in and genetically tailor the chromosome as costs for genetic engineering drop. But, it's a fun discussion nonetheless.

= )
 
Last edited:

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
I didn't say it was one kitten per litter and that pairing was repeated three times with similar results. Last show year all four kittens from the litter were successful in getting finals at shows. Same with the next litter, although there were only two kittens. This recent litter had four kittens but only two have been shown, both finalled quite well in their last show. I don't know of ANY inbred Savannah litters doing that well.

I think that your thinking aligns better with CFA (Cat Fanciers Association), but then Savannahs aren't accepted there. They are fans of rabid inbreeding, hence the health issues they have with their very limited gene pools. TICA has always accepted outcrossing and hence has healthier lines in breeds like the Burmese etc.

Yes, we must agree to disagree, I am thankful that most of our breed's breeders don't seem to agree with your thinking either.
 

sacred

Savannah Super Cat
I didn't say it was one kitten per litter and that pairing was repeated three times with similar results. Last show year all four kittens from the litter were successful in getting finals at shows. Same with the next litter, although there were only two kittens. This recent litter had four kittens but only two have been shown, both finalled quite well in their last show. I don't know of ANY inbred Savannah litters doing that well.

I think that your thinking aligns better with CFA (Cat Fanciers Association), but then Savannahs aren't accepted there. They are fans of rabid inbreeding, hence the health issues they have with their very limited gene pools. TICA has always accepted outcrossing and hence has healthier lines in breeds like the Burmese etc.

Yes, we must agree to disagree, I am thankful that most of our breed's breeders don't seem to agree with your thinking either.

Just because some people do inbreeding incorrectly doesn't mean it isn't necessary to actually establish a breed. The irony is you can't have a "breed" without inbreeding. You can't on one hand use purebreds to create the Savannah cat and then on the other hand turn your nose down at the idea of purebreds. If people really believed that purebreds are such bad things, then why not use some stray american short hairs as the foundation stock for the Savannah?

"Because I couldn't reproduce the animal I wanted without using a purebred cat you would say (and remember, "purebred" basically means "an animal that is part of a breed created by inbreeding wherein the current animal has only been bred back to other animals from that same inbred foundation line).

And I would then say, "exactly". You don't have a Savannah Cat without purebreds. Oh, and I'm pretty sure everyone is breeding SBTs to other SBTs right? Certainly they aren't being crossed back with, say, a siamese. Well lets all sit back and watch that inbred coefficient go up together then, shall we?

As for health, I would also take a properly linebred animal against an outcross with regard to health/vigor any day because most of the deleterious genetics have been bred out and health and vigor are being selected FOR in the linebreeding. Properly linebred animals are healthier because when recessive genes do pop up you can eliminate those animals for the program and proper animals because homozygous for the healthy characteristics you want to preserve. Having established your line's strengths, you can then breed back to other complementary established lines to keep the inbred coefficient from getting too high and to continue improving your line. Frankly, it's all the outcrossers sending their animals to the newest hot stud with no planned breeding that create the problems in the breeds because they eliminate any genetic predictability. If everyone would get on the same page and linebreed correctly the genetic faults could be eliminated. Without linbreeding diseases just hide in the genepool, never fully exposed, randomly popping out as a matter of random chromosome pairing. The fact of the matter is that breeding to phenotype does little more than slightly improve results over random (because you have little to no idea what's in the genome, and phenotypes only loosely correlate to genetics) and winning shows has as much to do with time/money/effort as it does with the quality of the animal. Show me consistently reproducible type and I will concede. Show me ribbons and it's just not that interesting. You can win for having completely different strengths and weaknesses across animals, but that doesn't say much unless you can point to a cat and say "all of my cats have X" and "none of my cats have Y". Put another way, if a certain line isn't recognizable then what's the point of even having a cattery name?

Linebreeding isn't really possible in the higher generation Savannahs because they are, by definition, outcrosses. And, accordingly, look at how much variability there is in, say, an F2 Savannah when it comes to coat, size, temperament, energy level, diseases, etc. Why? Because they are outcrosses!

It's good PR to jump on the "inbreeding is bad" bandwagon, but it doesn't make much scientific sense and it certainly isn't internally consistent given the history of this, or ANY "breed" of any animal.
 
Last edited:

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
You are free to have your opinion of course, but badgering is not going to make me want to inbreed my cats and especially for some unknown reasoning as apparently show success does not mean that you have achieved a distinctive look in your opinion. So who is the "judge" then of when your breeding is successful if not people that are trained for the task?

And your definition of "properly linebred" I think rarely exists. Those that inbreed don't generally concentrate on health, they will take the health issues with the looks they are aiming for and just ignore those kittens or puppies....they are hidden under figurative rugs. On the other hand, those that track inbreeding coefficients with an aim to keeping them low generally do that with a concern for the health of the breed.

I think the inbreeding bandwagon has been around for much longer...it's a classic old-school approach and mostly the cat world (especially TICA's) has realized there is a better way to do things.
 

sacred

Savannah Super Cat
You are free to have your opinion of course, but badgering is not going to make me want to inbreed my cats and especially for some unknown reasoning as apparently show success does not mean that you have achieved a distinctive look in your opinion. So who is the "judge" then of when your breeding is successful if not people that are trained for the task?

And your definition of "properly linebred" I think rarely exists. Those that inbreed don't generally concentrate on health, they will take the health issues with the looks they are aiming for and just ignore those kittens or puppies....they are hidden under figurative rugs. On the other hand, those that track inbreeding coefficients with an aim to keeping them low generally do that with a concern for the health of the breed.

I think the inbreeding bandwagon has been around for much longer...it's a classic old-school approach and mostly the cat world (especially TICA's) has realized there is a better way to do things.

Interesting that you "share" your opinions but I "badger" when I post my thoughts ... especially when your claims of adhering to a superior system (that is based on "breeds" created by inbreeding and thus inherently nonsensical) have been equally assertive, though you haven't bothered to actually address any of the sincere points that I've made in what I thought was a discussion (that's why forums exist, no?). Call it "badgering" if you will, but at least I made an argument to defend my position. Pm that note, your claims that TICA is superior may be true, but in the absence of any arguments or evidence that breeds can even be created with "selective outcrossing" (which is a redundant way of saying, "outcrossing" I think) they are suspect as they are only organization that will currently recognize the Savannah SBT. Without taking the time to make the argument, it comes across as, "They like us so their ways are the best!". I'm not saying this is the case, but surely you see why merely asserting that TICA as superior in this instance doesn't do much.

As for show competitions - you missed my point, which I thought was clearly made. Linebreeding is about reproducing superior type consistently. Many outcrosses win shows and there are quite a few that are, at times, superior to linebred animals. But outcrossing does not allow for any predictable offspring. It is, inherently, a roll of the dice. And, if "selective outcrossing" got you the homozygous genetics one would be pursuing, how is it ultimately any different than linebreeding + outcrossing back to other lines, except that it is slower and less genetically transparent.

As for people who actually linebreed and whether or not it happens in the real world, academia/agriculture saw it applied in the production of cow breeds (purdue and montana state being some of the most striking examples of what can be accomplished) and you see it in horses where the monetary and genetic stakes are much higher (consider the frequency and amount of offspring one gets with a horse). It certainly has been well established in dogs as well and, again, is the method used to establish any domestic "breed" of anything. I will once again note that just because no one in the room is a pilot who can operate a plane doesn't mean that stage coach is a better way to travel. It just needs we might need a few more pilots.

Simply waiving your hand and saying, "My way is better so there!" and dropping in the "badgering" ad hominem for good measure doesn't really say much about the feasibility of your position. As I do think robust arguments could be made if only time were taken to actually make them, I'm actually a bit disappointed in how you've represented your position. If you don't want to discuss the matter, simply don't respond and I will of course respect that. But there's no reason that I can see to be flippant or passive aggressive about the matter, especially when we both might be in a position to learn from each other.
 
Last edited:

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
I think I have communicated clearly. I would actually love to see what inbred Savannahs you have seen that show that methodology to be superior.

I myself have seen our breed grow over the years without significant inbreeding and have seen great strides in type without use of this technique. The lines that I know of that have used limited gene pools are generally not the ones I find have the better cats. There ARE other registries that accept the Savannah, CFA has rules on not accepting "wild blood" as well as not liking any outcrossing within its accepted breeds.

I'm not missing your points, I just don't see them as convincing as you do. I don't think cat breeding has anything to do with pilots or stage coaches either.

You are free as an individual to pursue a breeding program that depends on strong inbreeding. It's not something that I or a number of other breeders wish to pursue. But I am done going in circles using lots of words in a meaningless "discussion", you can ridicule my views as hand waving and flippant all you like without my need to respond further.
 

SV Dad

Savannah Super Cat
From the sidelines. I think some of us are enjoying this "healthy debate" explaining differing views. This discussion has opened my eyes in a variety of areas.
Obviously both methods are being pursued, and both methods paying dividends.
From the sidelines, I detect different goals in the long run. Economics is one of them. An integrated and well balanced approach is another.
The problem, there might not be a universally recognized endpoint. But this leads to a lively discussion!
 

WitchyWoman

Admin
Staff member
Sacred….I'm really interested in this but have absolutely no background in genetics so pardon this question if it appears as dumb as I think it will:

Earlier on you said that one can selectively inbreed to eliminate negative traits. Are you talking about body type, genetic issues or both? For example, cardiomyopathy is a genetic trait in some Maine Coon lines which were used to establish some Bengal lines which were used to establish some SV lines. The potential exists in some SV lines to pass that negative trait to offspring. How would selective inbreeding breed out cardiomyopathy? I don't know anything about how it's passed on -- whether 1 or both parents have to have the responsible gene.

If only 1 parent needs the gene to pass it on isn't the only way to eliminate the potential for cardiomyopathy from that particular line to spay/neuter the cat?

Same with FIP. Still a lot of unknowns about this disease. Over the years a couple of breeders have come to my attention because they have what I consider an alarming occurrence of FIP in the cats they sell. I've also noticed that the sold cats have the same parents or one parent is the same. How would a breeder inbreed out the potential for this devastating disease?
 
Top