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Retained testicles

admin

Paige
Staff member
#31
So I am going to say a few things here...I would NEVER "get rid of" my older cats for a younger one - the younger one is the one that would have to be sent back to the breeder - sorry. I would also never sell to anyone who thinks it is ok to take older cats to a shelter - I don't care what kind of shelter it is. Those cats have lived with you their entire lives and now they have to go because you bought an F2 kitten that doesn't get along with them? And no, a shelter will likely euthanize them.

I just cannot believe you are so cavalier about all of this and I am beyond disappointed. You do what you have to do to keep your older cats...I have one that is 15 and I would die before I put him in a shelter...and no he does not like my savannahs, but they have been taught to give him space. You are the one who is in control, so teach your F2 not to bother them...play with him more, put him in a room by himself for a while...it is not fair to them.
 

Patti

Admin
Staff member
#32
I totally agree Paige - it physically sickened me when I read that she was getting rid of the older cats, then astounded when just a short time later she talked about getting another Savannah - yikes!!
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#33
Completely agreed. It's something we deal with in rescue over and over. Recently we've had some surrenders of older Savannahs into Rescue and it breaks our hearts. How must those cats feel? They can't possibly understand and I am very sure they don't see it as a good thing :-(
 

KMcgown

Site Supporter
#34
So I am going to say a few things here...I would NEVER "get rid of" my older cats for a younger one - the younger one is the one that would have to be sent back to the breeder - sorry. I would also never sell to anyone who thinks it is ok to take older cats to a shelter - I don't care what kind of shelter it is. Those cats have lived with you their entire lives and now they have to go because you bought an F2 kitten that doesn't get along with them? And no, a shelter will likely euthanize them.

I just cannot believe you are so cavalier about all of this and I am beyond disappointed. You do what you have to do to keep your older cats...I have one that is 15 and I would die before I put him in a shelter...and no he does not like my savannahs, but they have been taught to give him space. You are the one who is in control, so teach your F2 not to bother them...play with him more, put him in a room by himself for a while...it is not fair to them.
Wholeheartedly agree. They were there first! If you knew there was a limit on the number of cats you could have, why would you buy another?? actually quite shocked you would even write that on cat forum full of cat lovers. Can't image you will find anyone else here that agree's.
 

Karen W

Site Supporter
#35
Hello, I am Zoen's breeder. I haven't been on this forum since I first signed up over a year ago, so I had no idea that any of this was going on. Wow.

To set the record straight, I was told Diane had an F3 in her home and "a couple outdoor cats". I was not aware that she had 5 cats in her home. Secondly, her husband was aware that she wanted another SV, and in fact, he came with her to pick Zoen up and at no time in my presence did he seem displeased or annoyed that she was getting another cat. This was a considerable investment, and it seems to me that if he was concerned about them having too many cats, he would have put the kabash on her getting another kitten, especially such an expensive one.

I cannot possibly know what transpires in a home between a husband and wife as far as if they are both agreeable to acquiring a kitten unless I start demanding to personally get the husband's permission before I sell a kitten to any married woman, and I think that would just be rediculous to do. Did Diane promise to get rid of her other cats as part of the condition of her being able to get Zoen- only Diane knows that answer. If I had been told the truth about the situation ahead of time that she had 5 cats and needed to get rid of 3 of them, I would NOT have placed Zoen with Diane. But I think Diane probably knew that and that is why she did not tell me the truth. That is very disappointing to me to find out that because I sold her a kitten, she is essentially going to throw away her old cats. I can't tell you how this breaks my heart. I had no idea- I guess some people will do whatever is necessary to get what they want, including deceiving others. That is NOT how I operate, and I surely am kicking myself now over this situation. I didn't have to sell Zoen to Diane- I had two offers from other buyers willing to pay me more money than Diane was paying for Zoen, but as I had already accepted a deposit from Diane and my ethics prevent me from being dishonest in making up a story to tell Diane why I was refunding her deposit and she wouldn't get Zoen just so that I could sell Zoen for a higher price, I turned them down and stuck with selling to Diane. This is where the high road has led me, and now I have to question everything.

To Diane: I find the tone of your posts regarding Zoen's testicles to be troubling, ESPECIALLY the threatening nature and negative tone taken against Zoen's breeder (me). Before Zoen left me, he had a comprehensive physical exam. My vet always checks for testicles on every male kitten and makes sure he can feel both in the scrotum. At the time of that exam, both testicles were in the scrotum, which is why I was shocked that at his third exam he suddenly didn't have descended testicles. Nonetheless, knowing young males can pull them up when nervous, I advised you to delay the neutering. This was about the same time that you wrote me an angry email about having to run to different vets because my vaccine and anesthesia requirements angered your vet who wanted to give Zoen a vaccination he didn't need and wanted to use ketamine, and because it offended your vet that you wouldn't comply with what she wanted because of my difficult stipulations, your vet told you to take a hike and never come back. Yes, you blamed that on me, even though my vaccine protocol is what the AAFP recommends and what my vet recommends, so they are not at all strange and most cat breeders follow the same protocol. Same with the ketamine issue- most vets can do surgery on cats without using ketamine and don't make a fuss about it if the client requests that they don't use it. I've never heard of a vet firing someone as a client because they declined a vaccine or asked the vet to not use a particular anesthetic agent. That was a complete overreaction by the vet, unless of course the way it was approached by you as the client was inappropriate and things were said that seemed threatening or horribly disrespectful to the vet to the extent that she felt it was not advisable to keep you as a client for liability reasons. I don't know the whole story because I wasn't there, but I can guarantee that there are other vets in your area that would not think my vaccine protocol and no ketamine requirement would be an issue at all.

NOW- the part of the neutering story that you didn't tell the list while you were bashing me is that when this happened, I offered to drive to meet you halfway (you don't live that far from me/ just 3-3.5 hours) and pick up Zoen and take him to my vet to have him neutered for you, then the following weekend, meet you again to get him back to you. You declined my offer.

In regard to your thinly veiled threats about getting rid of Zoen if he sprayed in your house because I told you to put off the neutering and you getting all of your money back even if you have to sell him yourself, I think that you should refer back to the legally binding contract you signed that states that Zoen cannot be resold or rehomed- if for any reason you do not wish to keep him at any time during his lifetime, he is to be returned to me. It also states that I wil not refund your money, but if I do manage to rehome him, I would turn over whatever proceeds I receive from that placement minus expenses. That's how it works, not the way you say it does. If you had issues with that part of the contract, it would have been prudent for you to have said something prior to signing it, because once it's signed, it's legally binding. And undescended testicles do not qualify as a genetic defect that adversely affects the health of a cat that would qualify you for a replacement since part of the contract mandates that he have his testicles removed anyway. The only exception where a replacement would be warranted is if he didn't have testicles because I accidentally sold you a female instead of a male, or if I sold you a cat for breeding and the testicles never descended by the time he was a year old.

I don't appreciate people who say one thing to me and then another behind my back. I don't appreciate being painted in an unfavorable light by leaving out details or not giving the full context. I don't like being deceived, either. I find this entire thing to have been extremely disrespectful and troubling. Please have your husband give me a call at his earliest convenience so that I can discuss the plight of your older cats with him since he is the one who, according to you, is making you get rid of them. Perhaps we can comevto some sort of understanding about them.

Thank you, that's all I have to say on this matter. Any further discussion can be done privately by emailing me or calling me.
 

Rafiki

Site Supporter
#36
Thank you Karen for sharing your side of this story. Your vaccine protocol and no ketamine requirement are fairly standard. I agreed to the same with both my SV and my Pixie Bob. I also agree that undescended testicles do not qualify as a genetic defect as it can be fixed and I am very impressed that you were willing to drive that distance and take him to your vet. I am thrilled that you have the no rehome clause in the contract as well. I am sitting here thinking about how very sweet my Himys were when they reached their elder years (2 lived to be 20) and keep having to stifle sobs when I think of these cats being tossed aside for the new kitten. I hope that this situation resolves itself the best way possible for this cat.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#37
Thank you, Karen, for contributing your side of the story.

Agreed with Rafiki that the vaccine and no-ketamine is not unusual and not even Savannah specific, it's careful cat husbandry.

I don't think that it is wrong to refuse higher offers because you already have a deposit. I don't think that was a wrong decision...it just makes this mess more upsetting as you know that there were other homes available that you had turned down. Don't reconsider your ethics over this though! This is just a situation where despite our best efforts, something goes awry.

No, I don't think you needed to get written permission from a partner for purchasing a kitten, as you say the fact that the husband accompanied the buyer to pick up the kitten implies consent. I've always asked in my questionnaire if all members of the household want the cat/kitten but I don't require them to sign anything. You aren't the first nor the last breeder to not have the complete story given to you by a buyer. Of course if the buyer had disclosed that they were going to rehome cats to purchase your kitten, that would have ended the sale process. One would have to be quite callous to be okay with the idea of elderly cats being displaced.

i have no idea why your very reasonable offer to pick up Zoen and have your vet do the neuter was refused. That would seem a very good idea. I do hope that this situation is resolved soon and the neuter goes well.
 

Diane

Savannah Super Cat
#38
Well, I'm glad Karen posted this, because I got to explain everything on her post that was taken the wrong way......I really had a nice conversation with her and it turned out great. I said your most welcome to come out to my place and visit Zoen and my other 6 cats, and she said I would really like that when I'm out that way. All my cats are like my kids to me and they do have a forever home here, and I do go out of my way to take care of them. I've always been an animal lover, and these savannah cats are really my favorite breed out there, since I always loved the exotic wild cats. Karen even said she would be glad to sell me another savannah, but I have to many cats to handle right now, and I agreed that was true. Sorry this thing got out of hand and things do get messed up what people say, especially on a chat forum.....it's a little different than talking directly to the person or on the phone. Thank you, that's all I have to say on this...hope you understand.
 

Karen W

Site Supporter
#40
UPDATE: I spoke with Diane yesterday after she saw my post. I was hoping that she would come on the forum and give an update after our talk, but I believe she feels that she is better off not posting anything as communicating one's thoughts accurately can sometimes be difficult when emotions are involved. I don't care to discuss anyone's personal business without their permission, so I will keep details to a minimum.

As many of us were concerned about the older cats being rehomed or surrendered, Diane has assured me that her and her husband agree that all of the cats will be staying with them indefinitely, and there will not be any rehoming or surrendering any cats. The only reason she said something about not keeping all of the cats is that she was under a lot of stress and concern after receiving unexpected news of a potential major financial crisis that looked like there was a decent likelihood that it would occur and would cause a very significant hardship, and she panicked. I can understand how she felt- I have not just had the threat of hardship, but had sudden financial hardship in the form of unexpectedly losing my job during a time when the unemployment was at a record high. I worried about not being able to stay in my home and worrying about what I will do with all of my animals if I have to live in an apartment knowing there is no way anyone would allow me to have 4 cats and 10 dogs in a rental, so I also started thinking about rehoming and preparing myself for what I might have to do. Lucky for me, I have a lot of friends who offered to take in my animals and care for them until I got back on my feet, but I realize that not everyone is so lucky. It's easy to say you'd never rehome your animals, you'd be homeless and keep them rather than have to give them up, but in my case, as a single mother, that wasn't an option- my children had to be my first priority. Thankfully, things didn't get to that point, but worrying about whether you will have a roof over your head can make you start to think about having to make some awful decisions.

Anyway, I'm not here to make excuses, but I do believe that some people do get very emotional and aren't equipped to handle stress as well and may say things that they don't mean, and I try very hard to be empathetic. I'm sure we are all guilty of not communicating well when we are upset. I know that I am not the best at expressing myself in a coherent, rational and organized manner when I am upset or deeply worried about something.

Diane apologized for everything that was said, and I forgave her as I truly believe that she didn't have any ill intent. Her and her husband both love all of the cats and are committed to keeping them for the rest of their lives. She invited me to come to her home and visit her and see how well the cats are kept and how devoted they are to their cats. I told her I will be happy to come visit the next time I will be in her area.

Zoen was neutered on Monday and is doing well after the surgery. He is a big boy at just shy of 10 lbs at just under 7 months of age. He is a joy to Diane and her husband, and such a sweet, affectionate and outgoing cat. Of course as a large playful kitten, the older cats don't exactly appreciate his high energy and his constant attempts to get them to be his playmate, but they have figured out how to let him know that they want to be left alone and they are slowly getting things sorted out.

So this story has a happy ending after all. I will be keeping in close contact with Diane to make sure everything continues to go smoothly. She also now knows that if a major crisis would ever occur, I will always assist her with Zoen as well as her other cats in any way I possibly can, just as I would for any of my kitten (or puppy) buyers.

I am hopeful that we can all move past this now. As they say, all is well that ends well.