Savannah Cat Chat - THE Place for Savannah Cat Talk

Welcome to the Savannah Cat Chat Forum! Our forum has been in existence since 2012 and is the only one of its kind. We were here, serving the savannah cat community before Facebook and Instagram! Register for a free account today to become a member! Please use an email program other than Hotmail, since Hotmail accounts are blacklisted by many servers and ISP's. Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site in some of the forums by adding your own topics and posts. But in order to take advantage of the full features, such as a private inbox as well as connect with other members ad access some of the larger topics, a donation of $2.99/mo or $25/yr is requested. This will allow us to continue running this forum!

Understanding pedigree certificates.

Patti

Admin
Staff member
#21
You will find different definitions for inbreeding and line breeding. I most commonly associate inbreeding with direct relatives, e.g., parent-child or sibling to sibling, and line breeding a less immediate relation such as uncle-niece, grandparent-grandchild. Here is an interesting article on inbreeding and line breeding: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html
 
#22
Agree Trish. Every bit if not more, as the influence wains in successive generations. I mentioned it partly as to why our cats are related.
Gotcha :) I do wish we had a program that gave us more info about the Servals used throughout the United States... I would actually be interested in comparing THEIR inbreeding/line breeding since there are far fewer Servals than domestics-- obviously-- and captive bred/raised Servals are going to be a lot more successful than any wild caught animal in producing SVs. In fact, I cannot imagine any wild caught Serval pairing with a DSH, but I could be wrong-- I guess a horny cat will be a horny cat.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#23
I do know of one case in South Africa where they tried to do this and it did not go well. If they are not grown up with domestic cats they simply don't see them as sexual partners.

I wish people did track Serval pedigrees...or there was interest in doing a genetic study of Servals to see how diverse their gene pool was in the US. We have no idea, all we know is that a diverse background of domestic cats have been used with Servals and onward...
 

SV Dad

Site Supporter
#24
Trish and Bridgette, John Popp and I had a long discussion on PM's over this very subject. We were very curious about how narrow or wide the Serval gene pool actually is in the Savannah population.
We were impressed with the hybrid vigor, but thinking about what has been said in this thread, I have to wonder if all of the domestic outcrossings more strongly contributed to the overall health of the breed.
Side note: But I am starting to get very worried with all these FIP reports showing up. Yes, I do consider that these are expensive cats and the first thing somebody does is start googling it when their SV appears or has it. So that might be why we are seeing a lot of reports on the forum......
Back to the Serval gene pool. JP and I were wondering if the Serval gene pool was under 10 cats initially, and if this gene pool has been expanding in the last 5 to 10 years.
I do realize we have an established breed and new Serval blood might not be important, but Trish and Bridgette have got me thinking that if there was substantial line breeding, then some genetic flaw might be showing up. Before we get all worked up, I realize the tremendous growth of the breed has the number of these cases (FIP, HCM, etc) to be proportionally very small. Doesn't hurt to be vigilant.
 
#25
Trish and Bridgette, John Popp and I had a long discussion on PM's over this very subject. We were very curious about how narrow or wide the Serval gene pool actually is in the Savannah population.
We were impressed with the hybrid vigor, but thinking about what has been said in this thread, I have to wonder if all of the domestic outcrossings more strongly contributed to the overall health of the breed.
Side note: But I am starting to get very worried with all these FIP reports showing up. Yes, I do consider that these are expensive cats and the first thing somebody does is start googling it when their SV appears or has it. So that might be why we are seeing a lot of reports on the forum......
Back to the Serval gene pool. JP and I were wondering if the Serval gene pool was under 10 cats initially, and if this gene pool has been expanding in the last 5 to 10 years.
I do realize we have an established breed and new Serval blood might not be important, but Trish and Bridgette have got me thinking that if there was substantial line breeding, then some genetic flaw might be showing up. Before we get all worked up, I realize the tremendous growth of the breed has the number of these cases (FIP, HCM, etc) to be proportionally very small. Doesn't hurt to be vigilant.
Hate to say it-- I don't believe in hybrid vigor.

Look at the dog breeds that supposedly have hybrid vigor and then spend some time reading up on them. Labradoodles and whatever else has been hyped up. They have the same issues as their parents had- hips, eyes, whatever.

I think all in all, CATS ARE healthy creatures! And we are not creating anything abnormal-- ie (hate to say it) like the very giant breeds of dogs- who end up only living 8-10 years due to the massive amount of work their hearts have to do to sustain such large frames. I don't think even a 25 pound Savannah is that abnormal weight-wise (I think I'd need John Popp to do the math- he seems good with numbers) when the average kitty weight is probably 12-16 pounds versus Danes/Mastiffs which can weigh over 200 pounds and average doggy weight is probably closer to 50-60 pounds (if not 40).

Anyhoo, what can you do? I remember the discussion on here about the Serval gene pool (it was on the forum for a bit before ya'll probably carried it into private message) and I do find it a point of concern in our breed, but as B has pointed out- as we've bred outwards, we have introduced so many other bloodlines, that hopefully, there are no worries.

BUT I do want to point out- in the SX breed, they can easily trace back through the heritages quite a few generations to point out a few ancestors who really brought HCM into the breed (or were huge contributors to HCM as far as they can tell). So that worries me too-- the fact that one or two individuals can play a significant role in the future of a breed far, far down the line.

But let's face it--- everything worries me :)
 

ambiente18

Site Supporter
#26
Bristol, Patti's pedigree is what you would get. Ambiente's is the ownership transfer and name registration.
On a health point, my SE cats are very healthy. The foundation serval they used, Keystone, was a healthy beautiful cat! (May he rest in peace)
You are right. It is the ownership transfer and name registration, but at first I register the litter in TICA (you may see), after this I register the name of kitty and after - this type of sertificate . And if I need I may order pedigree (5 or 3 generation for my kittens and it will cost - 40$) I proved this ,because at first the conversation was shown Sahara's pedigree sertificate and for me - it looks strange
 

Attachments

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#27
Trish and Bridgette, John Popp and I had a long discussion on PM's over this very subject. We were very curious about how narrow or wide the Serval gene pool actually is in the Savannah population.
We were impressed with the hybrid vigor, but thinking about what has been said in this thread, I have to wonder if all of the domestic outcrossings more strongly contributed to the overall health of the breed.
Side note: But I am starting to get very worried with all these FIP reports showing up. Yes, I do consider that these are expensive cats and the first thing somebody does is start googling it when their SV appears or has it. So that might be why we are seeing a lot of reports on the forum......
Back to the Serval gene pool. JP and I were wondering if the Serval gene pool was under 10 cats initially, and if this gene pool has been expanding in the last 5 to 10 years.
I do realize we have an established breed and new Serval blood might not be important, but Trish and Bridgette have got me thinking that if there was substantial line breeding, then some genetic flaw might be showing up. Before we get all worked up, I realize the tremendous growth of the breed has the number of these cases (FIP, HCM, etc) to be proportionally very small. Doesn't hurt to be vigilant.
I agree, Rascaldad, the domestic outcrosses are probably more likely to have contributed to the overall health from genetic diversity. With no tracking of Serval pedigrees, there is a real possibility that Servals in this country are more limited in heritage than we might know.

You might find that if you simply join a regular FIP Yahoogroup that there are just a lot of kittens that come down with FIP... although we do see some posted here, you have to remember that this is one of the biggest diseases in cats (beyond heart disease) and possibly gets more attention as it is heartbreaking because of its targeting of kittens. Additionally, when your kitten is sick like this, you are more likely to seek out a forum or email list to try to find answers and alternative diagnoses.

Now it may be that recently the few cases of kittens with FIP I have read/heard about have been from one specific cattery... but it also is a cattery that produces a LOT of kittens, so potentially there is just a numbers game if you consider the random nature of the coronavirus mutating to that lethal form? I don't know. It's always possible that a cattery develops a line that ends up with some sort of immune system weakness and therefore kittens are more susceptible to this. Every cat breeder will face FIP at some stage, what is important is how they deal with it.
 

SV Dad

Site Supporter
#28
Thanks Trish and Bridgette. Good reading.
I am aware that FIP is all over cats in general. And I do think we see owners with FIP chiming in, as they have googled their way here.
B, you did seem to get my intellectual dilemma. Is the small number we are seeing drilling down to a specific line? Or, because the breed is getting a serious number of cats, it's a numbers game like you said. We will probably never know.
It's nice to know others are kicking this idea around in their heads. From where I stand, I have seen this type of wondering pay off in human health issues, when a couple of clinicians think they are seeing a pattern and then sniff around some more and start getting a handle on it. (I have helped a clinical lab identify quality issues twice in my current position, so keeping your eyes open occasionally pays off.)
Oh, Trish, in your post #25 on this thread, was the SX a typo? and mean SV?
 
#29
Thanks Trish and Bridgette. Good reading.
I am aware that FIP is all over cats in general. And I do think we see owners with FIP chiming in, as they have googled their way here.
B, you did seem to get my intellectual dilemma. Is the small number we are seeing drilling down to a specific line? Or, because the breed is getting a serious number of cats, it's a numbers game like you said. We will probably never know.
It's nice to know others are kicking this idea around in their heads. From where I stand, I have seen this type of wondering pay off in human health issues, when a couple of clinicians think they are seeing a pattern and then sniff around some more and start getting a handle on it. (I have helped a clinical lab identify quality issues twice in my current position, so keeping your eyes open occasionally pays off.)
Oh, Trish, in your post #25 on this thread, was the SX a typo? and mean SV?
No, SX- sorry, Sphynx. The Sphynx breed can trace a lot of the HCM back to a certain handful of cats in their pedigrees. Of course, it's not always that easy or that clear, but it just makes me realize how much impact one major producer (usually a male) can have on the future of a breed.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
#30
B, you did seem to get my intellectual dilemma. Is the small number we are seeing drilling down to a specific line? Or, because the breed is getting a serious number of cats, it's a numbers game like you said. We will probably never know.
I don't think it has to be one or the other...it could easily be both...that some are just random occurrences, and that some might be linked to a specific line. One would hope that the latter is short-lived and that no breeder would enjoy producing a number of FIP kittens and would cull the cats producing more than one or two affected kittens.