Savannah Cat Chat - THE Place for Savannah Cat Talk

Welcome to the Savannah Cat Chat Forum! Our forum has been in existence since 2012 and is the only one of its kind. We were here, serving the savannah cat community before Facebook and Instagram! Register for a free account today to become a member! Please use an email program other than Hotmail, since Hotmail accounts are blacklisted by many servers and ISP's. Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site in some of the forums by adding your own topics and posts. But in order to take advantage of the full features, such as a private inbox as well as connect with other members ad access some of the larger topics, a donation of $2.99/mo or $25/yr is requested. This will allow us to continue running this forum!

Domestic Wildcats Sells Sick Kittens - domesticwildcat.com - Domestic Wild Cat - Taran Nolan

Patti

Admin
Staff member
the general consensus is that their kittens aren't anything more than maybe an F6 (or 7) Savannah or a chausie kitten, which is not what I paid for.
The contract does not mention any generation, only that you are purchasing a Savannah-Lynx hybrid, so regardless of what you may have been told, there is nothing in the contract that contradicts what you were sold.

There are permissible and non permissible outcrosses
There are actually no longer any permissible outcrosses for the Savannah breed anymore. Outcrosses were permitted while the breed was in development, but once it became a Championship breed it lost all permissible outcrosses. Of course, that doesn't mean that a breeder can't outcross a Savannah and still register the kittens as Savannahs, they just won't be considered the 'true breed', or purebred Savannahs per TICA registration rules.
 

eddiegunks

Savannah Super Cat
. Of course, that doesn't mean that a breeder can't outcross a Savannah and still register the kittens as Savannahs, they just won't be considered the 'true breed', or purebred Savannahs per TICA registration rules.

Good to know. How is this indicated on "papers" or from TICA?

Thx
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
Good to know. How is this indicated on "papers" or from TICA?

Thx
The heritage of the Savannah is usually indicated on the papers via its registration code.

It used to be that the certificate would designate either "Stud Book Registry" or "Foundation Registry" but I am looking at a recent kitten's registration printed from TICA's online portal just now and it doesn't say either of those so that may be a thing of the past. I'm not sure. Maybe when TICA prints and sends the certificate it does still say that.

In the cat world, SBT starts the code of a purebred cat... reflecting that the three generation pedigree is only made up of cats of that breed. So it is in the Savannah, hence this can only happen at F4 at the earliest.

As Patti states, there are no more permissible outcrosses for the Savannah breed, in the past when we were still in the new breed program we did have designated outcrosses which were decided by the TICA board to be most suitable for developing the breed. Those were Egyptian Mau, Ocicat, Oriental Shorthair and Domestic Shorthair. When these breeds were used the three letter registration code would reflect the pedigree having only permissible outcrosses by the letter P and N was used for nonpermissible outcrosses (such as Bengal)...

The three letters at the beginning of any cat's registration code tell you something about the background. SBT says it is purebred. "A" at the beginning says outcrossed, and nowadays is mainly seen at the F1 level as the Serval is still strictly speaking an outcross. The Serval will also be represented while in the three generation pedigree with the third letter being S (reflecting another species in the three generation pedigree). So an F1 will always be A1S (A saying it is outcrossed, 1 saying it is one generation away from a cat of unknown pedigree (the Serval does not have a pedigree) and S saying there is a cat of a different species in the 3 gen pedigree).

B reflects one generation of breed to breed, so in that case a B2S would be most F2s nowadays as people generally use a Savannah male with their F1. C reflects 2 generations, and so most F3s would be C3S.

Now to add to the confusion is that N and P I mentioned above. With F1 to F3 this is "hidden" by the S in the registration code...but as our breed is young, we did often get to F4 and beyond without having SBT in the code. It was in recent years that there was enough Savannah males to rule out outcrosses. When I bought my first breeding queen, an F2 female, back in 2003 almost everything was outcrossed. I think Joyce Sroufe had some fertile males but they were still rare. My second queen was F3B sired by one of her boys.But as my F2 was A2S (as her father was a Serengeti male) my F3s were B3S and my F4s were CON... C stating two gens of SV to SV, O saying that there were no cats of unknown heritage in the 3 gen pedigree but N saying that one of the registered cats in the 3 gen pedigree was nonpermissible (the Serengeti was not a permissible outcross). This is in fact proving what Domestic Wildcats says is a lie. They have told buyers that their cats are not registrable because the outcrosses they have used were nonpermissible, but as you see TICA has a code to reflect that and STILL registers the Savannah.

TICA is a genetic registry and will register outcrossed cats. This allows introduction of cats to bring in new or desired traits, but also to replenish the gene pool in the case of some cat breeds with limited cats. Generally there is a reason to outcross. So you might see a SV with a code outside those stated and there is good reason for it. In the case of Domestic Wildcats the only "reason" given is a hankering to produce size and a "wild" look, which is not anywhere in the Savannah breed standard. I have told them over and over that they are NOT producing Savannahs, they are not aiming to breed per our breed standard and hence call them something else and nobody would be quite so angry. If they wish to breed this vision of what they think looks fabulous give it a name other than our breed so that the public is not misled.
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
BTW, am I the only one wondering why all of her cats look seriously pissed off in the photos? And why have a picture of an ALC cat (that they "met one summer") if you are not breeding Bengals? In case you can't tell, this cattery seriously pisses me off.

No, you are not. When those pictures arrived on their website of their poor new F1 JC hybrid queens, I actually posted the website to FB on my timeline with a rant about how unhappy the cats were and who puts such pictures proudly on a cattery website to advertise their cattery?

It got shared to the Chausie group, and then I got threatening messages from Jimmy threatening legal action if I didn't remove my post. i pointed out that my post specifically stated that it was my opinion and as such was allowed. FB being the place to post opinions. And I suggested that if it were true that these pictures only reflected the queens on arrival and now they were happy campers, then he could take new pictures to replace those on his website. The pictures appear to be the same still.

There's a post recently on FB about a Craigslist ad for one of her kittens, the comments reflect the many people that are disgusted with the cattery. It may have been removed by now of course...
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
Let me clarify. It's not the Coccidia I'm worried about. I mentioned that only due to the post being about sick kittens. The one I uploaded is the same one I signed...just the signed copy was too large to upload. I'm concern is that after reading all the posts (some of the more recent ones from 2015 to present) the general consensus is that their kittens aren't anything more than maybe an F6 (or 7) Savannah or a chausie kitten, which is not what I paid for. I do have some emails from Jimmy explaining about the parents (which I can upload when I get to from a computer...can't from my phone) and I'm pretty sure it somewhat contradicts some of the things he told other members of this site. Not only that but he seems to contradict himself in an email he sent to another member who upload that email to this site (I would have to scroll back for reference). If the kitten has breeds other than what the contract states, which is Savannah Lynx hybrid and isn't the generation he claims it to be, would that not give me some kind of leverage to at least go to him and ask for money back (or at least a portion since we do love the kitten, but $2500 is a bit excessive)?

In terms of your contract, it doesn't represent the kitten as anything specific in generation...hence even if F20 if there IS Savannah in the heritage, their description holds. As there is no real definition of "lynx" when it comes to domestic cats I don't think it can be argued either.

I guess that if Jimmy made other representations of the kitten's pedigree in the emails there might still be something you could claim. I agree that $2,500 seems excessive for an unregistered kitten of mixed undetermined heritage!
 

kokogal

Site Supporter
No, you are not. When those pictures arrived on their website of their poor new F1 JC hybrid queens, I actually posted the website to FB on my timeline with a rant about how unhappy the cats were and who puts such pictures proudly on a cattery website to advertise their cattery?

It got shared to the Chausie group, and then I got threatening messages from Jimmy threatening legal action if I didn't remove my post. i pointed out that my post specifically stated that it was my opinion and as such was allowed. FB being the place to post opinions. And I suggested that if it were true that these pictures only reflected the queens on arrival and now they were happy campers, then he could take new pictures to replace those on his website. The pictures appear to be the same still.

There's a post recently on FB about a Craigslist ad for one of her kittens, the comments reflect the many people that are disgusted with the cattery. It may have been removed by now of course...

I was curious and you are right those are MAD kitties. Those poor things. I don't believe the whole "oh they just didn't want their picture taken" excuse from their website. What are they doing to them to get that sort of response? :(
 

Brigitte Cowell

Moderator
Staff member
I was curious and you are right those are MAD kitties. Those poor things. I don't believe the whole "oh they just didn't want their picture taken" excuse from their website. What are they doing to them to get that sort of response? :(

It's possible that they simply purchased less-than-socialized cats. They apparently purchased these as adults and as F1s they would not deal with change well in any case and I don't have confidence in their abilities to establish trust with cats. Poor kitties were probably terrified :-(
 
Hi all! So I am very new to this website and to owning a Savannah (or at least what I was told was a Savannah) which we got from Domestic Wildcats! Wish I would have seen this site sooner! My fiancé surprised me for my 30th birthday by purchasing me what we're told was a Savannah...same as everyone else...an F2.5 (which I knew wasn't a true generation, just their nickname). What I didn't understand fully was the breeding generations and crosses with other breeds and how exactly that determined what they were considered etc. since my kitten was somewhat a surprise I didn't really get to research much and my fiancé definitely didn't know anything much about the breed (he simply trying to get me a beautiful kitten that was from a serval bloodline). Anyway, after we received our kitten a week ago I took her to the vet and she has Coccidia! Jimmy seemed very concerned and even paid the vet bill. After reading all this info on here I'm now concerned we were screwed! We paid $2500 for our little girl and YES WE HAVE A CONTRACT (the one I uploaded is not the executed copy, it was too large) No papers though. Would someone mind please taking a look at the contract and give me any advice on whether or not they think there's any legal action I could take?

Hi there, I also purchased my cat from the same breeder and I found another person that did too (they had the same issues). My cat had a lot stomach issues while she was growing up and doctors tested her but thought it was just that she couldn't digest the food. I moved her on an almost all cooked blended chicken diet & broth. I would also add canned food (fussy cat) because they also need other nutrients. Anyways, she grew out of it and now eats normal. 2 cans of fussy cat and dry food through out the day. My cat did also have black in her ears which the doctor put something that looks like wax in her ears.. she is a lot better now.

We have other issues with her behavior or her boredom actually but her diet is good now. Feel free to ask me any question though. I live in Los Angeles.. in case you are near by.
 
Do you know who the parents are? If they sold you a "F2.5 Savannah" this could be quite important as the new queens are F1 Chausies. Stella, Sable and Mattie are allegedly F2s (your kitten would have to be from one of them). They had an F6 Savannah stud but they are no longer using him. Big Foot is an F7 savannah, Goat has zero Savannah blood, Polar Bear would be an F4 based on the description but I do not know what the heck he is. Not sure what they are stating as a "Lynx". I am not saying that they are not interesting cats that would appeal to some people but they are certainly not what I would consider Savannahs.

BTW, am I the only one wondering why all of her cats look seriously pissed off in the photos? And why have a picture of an ALC cat (that they "met one summer") if you are not breeding Bengals? In case you can't tell, this cattery seriously pisses me off.


I got my cat from the same breeder and she said the parents were Big Foot and Mattie but who kows..
 
Top