One stressed mommy

[WitchyWoman]

He's a kitten with kitten energy; he's a savannah kitten with all the stubbornness, energy, intelligence, and push-the-envelope attitude that the breed is known for. None of the cats have yet established the new hierarchy. Seems as though Bucky wants to be top cat and is working toward convincing the others it will be that way. The hierarchy process will take at least a year and then can undergo changes at any time after that. It is the nature of felines. The other cats appear flustered by the presence of that kitten energy. SVs are notorious for not taking no for an answer. Some or none of this will change as he matures.

He may be innately play aggressive or he may need more stimulation. You may think he's getting enough play time and attention, but he may think differently. I agree that it's time for a behaviorist consult. I still recommend at least a phone consult with Marilyn Krieger.

It's my F6 Taji who is on Prozac. He underwent a drastic change at about 4 yrs of age. He's 6 now. His bullying and attacking of the other cats escalated to intolerable proportions over the last 2 yrs and behavior modification did not work. When I say aggression, I mean attacking to hurt which has a far different set of behaviors that what you describe for Bucky. So as a last resort, I started him on Prozac and he is now the sweet, funny, playful boy he used to be.

I'm not sure medication is an appropriate approach for a kitten. Most of what you describe of Bucky's behavior sounds like normal SV kitten behavior to me. One thought is that your intervention in the play when the other cats scream is keeping them from working it out by themselves and eventually they do have to work it out among themselves.

I have 4 male SVs -- A 23 lb F1 kitten, 2 F2s and 1 F6. The kitten plays the same way with all of them -- jumps on them, chases them, and play bites. He plays rough mostly due to his size and clumsiness. The other 3 all react to it differently. One F2 gives as good as he gets; one screams like he's being tortured by demons. The F6, who is 10 lbs. whines a bit and then always diffuses the rough play by initiating a game of chase. I have to do a little refereeing from time to time because the F1 does get into a zone occasionally where he needs to be distracted from whichever cat he is roughing up. But those instances steadily decrease as he gets older.

So I think a good approach would be to talk to Marilyn and talk to your vet. If indeed Bucky has a true aggressive personality then it could be that behavior modification and medication together will take the pressure off long enough for the cats to work out their places in the hierarchy. But meds should be the last resort and only after it's established that an aggressive personality exists.

 

[Chris Elliott]

What WW said. With correct cat attribution.

And, particularly, the letting them work it out. Our F2 can be aggressive with our F6 (both joined our home as older cats, 4 and 3yo). Our F6 would scream and run. It took her a while to discover he wanted to play, not kill her. Over time, he adapted to her, playing gentler, and she will now occasionally initiate play with him. Not to say that she doesn't still scream now and then, but we don't need to get in the middle, except in the rare case where she's backed in a corner and he's not willing to back off. Trimming nails also helped.

 

[l.i.t]

so what I'm hearing here is different from what I'm seeing Bucky do. But please explain to me what you guys consider 'play bites' and what kinds of things you see when the aggressor is going 'too far' and it's not just the other cat being histrionic.

Toot is histrionic... She hisses and swats no matter what. Mostly b/c she is a Manx with spina bifida (lol, it said 'bikini' before I edited) and is over sensitive on her hind quarters so doesn't like being touched there. Oddly, she's the one who is tolerating all this the best.

Lotto is not histrionic and enjoys the 'play' - play biting, wrestling, chasing. He has no adverse reactions other than the occasional hiss or swat.

So if you don't mind, so that I know we are on the same page here, let me know what you mean by play biting, and what kinds of physical behaviors you see when it turns into bad aggression.

Remember this is not our first F2 kitten. With Lotto, we dealt with kitty enthusiasm/aggression, although he tended to direct it toward us mostly, and went *fairly* easy on the other cats, although he did torment one quite a bit. But he was pretty clearly relegated to just jumping on her and play biting. When she was distressed, he would pause and wait a bit before trying again.

 

[Rafiki]

Bucky is fixed, right? I am wondering if we are also dealing with hormones.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Taji went into what I called the "red zone" seemed to become completely unaware of anything around him but his intended victim. He would start to howl, then scream, arch his back, go up on tip toes and then hurl himself at the other cat. His bites were intended to seriously wound -- as in tear open a throat. His rabbit kicks were intended to tear open a belly. Whichever cat he attacked ended up with serious wounds -- as in emergency trips to the vet, stitches, antibiotics and permanent scarring. The last straw was when he attacked his best bud Juba and wounded him in the belly so deep it almost got to the intestines.

He would go into the red zone in a matter of seconds for no apparent reason. Could be walking by a cat with no indication of an issue and then BAM, serious blood was flowing. His #1 victim was my 18 lb F2 Maliik. They used to be close and then something happened between them. I don't know what. He would hunt Maliik, stalk him unmercifully. Maliik started to spend all his time trying to not attract Taji's attention. It was all very very ugly.

When my cats play, they get small boo boos. I frequently find tiny scabs or scratches on them from their play even though I keep their nails trimmed. Every now and then someone gets an eye scratched. But it is normal play and doesn't escalate beyond that.

 

[l.i.t]

Rafiki, yes, Bucky is fixed ;-)

WW, I would say we are somewhere between play and Taji's red zone. Bucky, too, become unaware of anything else that's going on. He is completely undistractable by noise, toy, food, even when we grab him. He gets blinders on and will not let up. He hasn't gone so far as to draw serious blood - but (as his breeder told me earlier) he gets some joy/stimulation out of getting a rise out of another cat, or when they are in pain. It's possible this is mostly just hunter instinct - when you see it struggle, go harder!

I can tell when he plays... And this is like a different switch. Sometimes, he will jump on one of them, and nip to see if they will engage. But sometimes, he is absolutely unnecessarily over the line. Mostly it switches on when he wants to play/fight, and they either don't or want to quit. The only way I know to describe it is that it's another level. Certainly not angry/malicious like it sounds like Taji was getting. But somewhere in between. I've even watched it switch on recently when Lotto was too despondent and didn't even defend himself. He just rolled over and let Bucky attack him. When Lotto didn't respond Bucky tried harder... And when Lotto didn't respond, again, the switch flipped and it was full on biting and attack until Lotto made serious distressed noises and managed to get out from under him and run. Bucky ran after him, but we managed to separate the two before it went further.

You guys are right that there may be an aire of dominance....but there is *something* more. He enjoys the rise - the struggle - the pain he induces? It's the only way I can put it.

We were letting them work it out, but it was just getting to be too stressful for the other cats. They were hiding all the time, running away from him, and generally not wanting to be in the house. They wanted me to take them out and then they did NOT want to come back in the house. Also,when I posted about trying to help Bucky learn boundaries, Patti mentioned that I needed to stop the aggressiveness b/c it was likely making Bucky and Lotto's relationship worse.

The most telling aspect to me is that we seem to be getting farther from better than closer. I'm not exaggerating when I say Lotto is no longer himself. He will not play, he was not even letting me pet him, he wouldn't go for walks, he would sleep under the bed all day, he wouldn't eat treats, he wouldn't purr. He would just sit and stare - that's when he just rolled over and let Bucky have his way It was like every piece of life was just sucked out him. Since we have intervenes, Lotto will purr again,and will let me pet him. But that's about it.

For some reason Bucky seems to pick on Lotto more - but I think it's because Lotto is the only cat who will play with Bucky, as toot consistently rebuffs him.

I'm certainly not opposed to letting them work it out - but it doesn't feel right that Lotto should have to be devoid of life and *still* get hurt so Bucky cam meet his hunting needs.

As for stimulation, I am at a loss of what else to do. I play wand toys with him for at least 3 hrs a day, I chase him, I play peacock feather and brown paper with him, I hide. Mice in water cups and the bathtub, I flush toilets, play in the sink with him, throw his mouse or squirrel for him to chase, and play hide and seek. Granted, he doesn't enjoy playing with many toys - but I made a box with pine and Juniper branches, as well as Windows and doors to crawl through - we have 3 cat towers, and a million hidey holes in the house for him to explore, and we have low window ledges and bunnies, jackrabbit, birds galore, and even foxes outside for him to watch (although the foxes are mostly out at night right now). I don't know what else to provide for stimulation.

My husband and I do work from home, but we monitor the brain and spinal cord during spine/brain surgeries (over the internet) , so we can't *always* be at his Beck and call. But he is never ignored and always gets rubbed, spoken to, or played with sometimes even when we are working.

I will see what behavior therapists are in my area, and will likely go ahead and give Marilyn a call.

Lotto is my main concern. I hate to see defenseless Toot be stressed, but she seems to be dealing with it better than Lotto.

Now if you guys think it's OK/normal for Lotto to withdraw from us and life, then I will consider just letting things happen...*if* he will recover. But I can't trade one cat's lifetime of mental well being for another's energy and enthusiasm/need to dominance/hunting/play. That would be like killing one of my cats, and I can't do that.

I apologize for not being very adept at explaining all of this. Even if we were seeing two steps forward and one step back, that would be progress. But it seems to be one step forward, and then two back. I hate it especially b/c I think if Bucky could just learn to respect the pain boundary (not necessarily let Lotto be dominant), I think they would be fine. Lotto doesn't really need to be dominant. Lotto defers to our Little Tootie on everything. He's OK not being alpha!

Please forgive typos... Doing this on the phone and my thumb typing is abysmal!

 

[WitchyWoman]

I can certainly empathize with your situation. When quality of life for an animal diminishes you certainly have to do something. I never had Taji tested to see if he had organic issues as in brain abnormality or a chemical/hormone imbalance causing the problem. I don't even know if a test exists to detect chemical imbalances. I'm assuming that the same mechanisms that cause similar symptoms in humans are also at play with cats since the human meds work on cats. I just didn't do the research.

Atticus, the F1, respects the boundaries set by Maliik and Taji. He does not respect those set by Juba who is a lover not a fighter. The big difference between your boys and mine is that mine go back to being friends -- grooming, playing less intensely, cuddling, when the ruckus is over. Juba's quality of life is not impaired by the cheeky kitten.

Pre-prozac the atmosphere in our home was tense and none of the cats were happy although Maliik was worse off than Juba. It affected us too. We were always on edge wondering when the next battle would begin and I wouldn't leave Taji out with the rest of the boys when I wasn't home. However being separated from the others and even timeouts only made Taji more aggressive toward the others. It was a lose-lose proposition at that point. I was in despair. I knew that if I couldn't find a solution, I would have to rehome Taji to an only-cat home and regardless of whether it would have been the best thing for the cats, I would have had a hard time living with the decision.

So I am sending you hugs and healing energy that you find a solution that works so everyone can be healthy, happy and safe. Please, please keep us updated.

 

[l.i.t]

However being separated from the others and even timeouts only made Taji more aggressive toward the others. It was a lose-lose proposition at that point. I was in despair. I knew that if I couldn't find a solution, I would have to rehome Taji to an only-cat home and regardless of whether it would have been the best thing for the cats, I would have had a hard time living with the decision.

OMG, this is it! Before we started putting him in timeout, there were maybe one or two major issues a day. BUT Lotto and Tootie were hiding all the time, and Lotto was not 'there' emotionally. Now, with time out, Bucky seems more determined than ever to find an outlet when his switch flips - of course that could be because the other cats are not hiding quite so often (as a response to his being put in time out so much). It's like a catch 22. Fewer incidents, but reclusive unhappy cats or some recovery of sanity for the cats, but more aggressive episodes.

The thought of removing Bucky makes me sick to my stomach. But the thought of Lotto living life with no joy also nauseated me just as much. I will contact Marilyn. I am already trying to video 'normal aggressive' play vs 'overly aggressive'.

Our vet did discuss the options of antidepressants (either for Lotto or Bucky, or both) or a small amount of Benson for Bucky until behaviors can be sorted out. But she stressed it as a last ditch option before removing.

I am sorry you had to go through all that with Taji. (has my autocorrect been putting Tajikistan?) I would have been mortified to have seen my cats bleeding all over the place. I can't imagine the fear and sadness. I'm really happy you guys did find a resolution. Some people are very against meds, but as someone who had to take antidepressants after a divorce, I certainly think they are miracles when everything else has been tried. Being able to emotionally return just to 'normal' was a godsend!
L

 

[l.i.t]

Thanks, kana Dian!

I think I'm going to have to have a serious talk with my autocorrect....

 

[Patti]

I am reading through all this and would urge you to contact Marilyn Krieger www.thecatcoach.com and set up an appointment for an evaluation. I suspect in the end that medication may be your best answer, but I believe that Marilyn will be able suggest several other options to try first.

As an aside, I had no idea that IONM could be done over the internet - amazing!